Hi, sorry if this is a noob question, but does this mod require a new save? Instinctively I'd say yes, but I'm not 100% sure. When are the levels for the NPCs generated/determined?
It's when enemies are spawned. So installing mid game should be fine, though any NPCs you've already met might not change their level if you've already spawned them. So going to a new dungeon should be fine, but revisiting an old one might mean enemies retain their old levels. Named NPCs (Faendal etc.) reset every 30 in game days and that should cause their level to update too. FWIW I periodically tweak the settings and re-run the patchers during my playthroughs and nothing bad happens.
Ah gotcha, just got a chance to test it and it works! I'm super excited for it. I've been using (my modified version of) the Nordic Souls playlist; it's really great, but the thing I kept missing from Requiem modlists was the deleveled world. Idk, it just made the world seem more gritty and realistic to me. Thank you for this mod!
Hello, I come with questions because I'm not sure to understand.
I understand the basics. If you are level 3 and you come across bandits (4, 16), you will get level 4 bandits and if you are level 17 you will get level 16. You tweaked the minimum-maximum levels of the enemy type and kinda tiered them. So bandits are harder at low levels but easier later, but vampires are more difficult than bandits (36, 64).
Now, I understand that Skyrim has encounter zones with their own mix-max levels. If the mod overwrites all the min-max level of NPCs, does that mean that not using a mod to un/delevel encounter zones (meaning you get the vanilla min-max levels for the encounter zones) will overwrite the level of NPCs in these encounter zones no matter vanilla's min-max level in the encounter zones? What if the enemy type has a min-max level outside the range of the encounter zone min-max level?
> If you are level 3 and you come across bandits (4, 16), you will get level 4 bandits and if you are level 17 you will get level 16. No, this is not quite right. The truth is more like: "If you are level 3 and you come across a bandit dungeon (with EZ 4, 16), you will get a level 4 bandit dungeon and if you are level 17 you will get a level 16 bandit dungeon." However, this is a summary of dungeon levels and EZs which the releveler does not edit.
> You tweaked the minimum-maximum levels of the enemy type and kinda tiered them. So bandits are harder at low levels but easier later, but vampires are more difficult than bandits (36, 64). This is correct.
> does that mean that not using a mod to un/delevel encounter zones (meaning you get the vanilla min-max levels for the encounter zones) will overwrite the level of NPCs in these encounter zones no matter vanilla's min-max level in the encounter zones? No, EZs do not affect the level of NPCs at all, it just determines which NPCs appear, and this is actually independent of the NPCs level (or at least independent of the releveler's changes to those levels).
> What if the enemy type has a min-max level outside the range of the encounter zone min-max level? The game will continue to spawn those enemies. Say a particular spawn point produces a draugr wight. The game does not actually check the level of the wight when deciding what to spawn. As such, even if you use the releveler to set the wight's level to 999, it will still spawn.
Believe me or not, but I spent the last hour and a half trying to understand what you said, trying to understand Skyrim's system and trying to understand what your mod does, and I still don't get it. And this is despite all the other hours I've put over the last weeks trying to understand Skyrim's system in order to mod it in a way that fits my combat goals. It is so unintuitive, so, all over the place...look, thank you for taking the time to answer and sorry for bothering.
No worries. Skyrim's leveling system is not very intuitive, but it is pretty clever once you figure it out. Have you read the long description on the mod page? There's also this page of the uesp which is pretty good: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Leveling
The key is to realize that its not enemies that level with the player, but dungeons. The flow of causality is kinda like this:
player level AND encounter zone -> dungeon level dungeon level AND spawn multipliers -> spawn level spawn level AND leveled list -> NPC
But, a key thing is that the spawn level is not the level of the NPC that actually appears, spawn level is just a calculated value used to pick which NPC is spawned. Here's a more worked example:
So in the case above, the level of the NPCs does in fact match their spawn level in the leveled list. However, this does not need to be the case, and this is what the releveler takes advantage of. It changes the level of the NPCs so the leveled list looks like this:
Now I certainly understand what your mod does. Within encounter zones/dungeons, you modified the level of NPCs and you tiered them in a way that progress feels more logical. Using an encounter zone mod, such as your favourite one, improves on the tiering, therefore, making progress even more logical. And this is different from vanilla where you could do Bleak Falls Barrow at a low level. tjhm4, thank you VERY MUCH.
Hi there, great mod. A question: do you have any idea if Enemy Releveler would compliment Requiem well? Are they even compatible? Because I'm wondering if Requiem handles enemy levels in a sensible enough way, such as for example not having to clear a whole a dungeon and things to go smoothly only to find out that the final boss is impossibly hard to defeat (much higher level than the rest), thus not being able to complete that dungeon for a while. I know that Enemy Releveler somewhat fixes this issue, but what about Requiem? Or does it have its own way handling this issue so that there is no need for Enemy Releveler as well, any idea?
They are certainly compatible in the broad sense, meaning that you can absolutely run the releveler on top of requiem. That said, I don't think this is necessarily a good idea because requiem already changes enemy levels a bunch. So at the very least you'd need to rewrite the faction_rules file to generate the changes you want, you'd probably also want to play extensively with requiem to decide what changes you wanted to make.
> I'm wondering if Requiem handles enemy levels in a sensible enough way, such as for example not having to clear a whole a dungeon and things to go smoothly only to find out that the final boss is impossibly hard to defeat This is a good point, and this is indeed what the releveler fixes. If you want to figure out you need to find the level ranges for requiem's enemies. The problem in vanilla arises because some bosses are way higher level than their grunts. So bandit chiefs are 28x the level of bandits, and draugr death overlords are 45x the level of basic draugr. With the releveler these differences are x4 and x3 respectively (it is the level ratio, not the absolute level difference that matters IMO). You should find requiem's documentation to see what level it gives enemies. If the ratios from basic to boss are less than 5 it's probably fine. If not, you might want to run the releveler, but you'll need to adjust the faction_rules file first.
I've tried using Releveler on top of Deadly Dragons + Dragons Use Thu'Um without success. Also came across many strange situations where the Releveler is touching Followers NPCS like the companions because it seems like they have the Guard Faction Keyword, capping their level. Then I have some enemies like this Sabre Cat added by Animallica, getting lvl cap increase instead. If I understand the mod right, the max level should be capped at 12 or 18, not increased to 135.
I think you are just misunderstanding how the mod works.
For that sabre cat, the rule is:
Sabre Cats: [6, 12] -> [10, 18]
This means a level 12 sabre cat gets set to level 18, and level 12 is the upper limit of vanilla sabre cats, so level 18 will be the upper limit after the releveler runs. But the one from animallica has a upper bound of level 100, this is waaaay beyond vanilla limits, and so it ends up way beyond the relevelers limits after it runs too. Ultimately, this is a design choice from animallica - it takes a fixed-level vanilla enemy type that ranges from level 6 to 12, and adds in a level scaling variant that goes all the way up to level 100. The releveler adjusts things, but keeps this design in place: vanilla sabre cats are static leveled, just a bit harder, while the scaling cats added by animallica keep their scaling, and their level bounds are made a little harder too.
As for the companions, yes, they will be edited too, though I can't tell what concern you are having. Same for the dragons. If you give more information I can clarify things.
I was reading comments and I thought that enemies added by mods would be adjusted by Releveler rules. But now you are saying that because they are way beyond vanilla limits
end up way beyond the relevelers limits after it runs too
Still I don't understand why they level max is increased from 100 to 135. Shouldn't be left untouched since its out of the Releveler rules parameters?
As for the companions, my concern is that some them are Followers. I guess it's ok if someone is willing to go through xEdit and remove the lvl caps from the Releveler manually but maybe the mod should add some kind of rule to not touch Followers lvls. For Dragons I don't know why the Releveler patch end up up between Deadly Dragons and Dragons Use Thu'Um. Tried to increase the Releveler plugin priority but it won't go higher than Dragons Use Thu'Um.
No, sorry, you're still not getting it. Let me try again. The releveler does relevel all NPCS, provided they are in the relevant factions, including mod added ones. However, the rule "[6, 12] -> [10, 18]" doesn't just mean "map all enemies of this faction to fall between levels 10 and 18", rather it means "map all enemies of this faction according to a linear transformation such that a level 6 enemy becomes level 10 and a level 12 enemy becomes level 18.
If we generalize the rule to "[a, b] -> [c, d]", and apply this to an enemy of level L, their new level N, is:
N = ((L-a)/(b-a)) * (d-c) + c
Taking your level 100 sabre cat added by animallica, this becomes:
Your point about followers is a good one. It sounds like I might need to add a companions faction, such that the guard faction doesn't grab them. Otherwise adding some kind of exception for followers is a good fix.
Your dragons issue sounds odd. Are you using vortex? It might be a problem with that. But in general, you should run patchers at the very end of building your load order and the resulting patching should load last.
You probably need to tell me what you are doing that triggers this, but with what you have told me this sounds like a missing masters issue. i.e., one of your mods requires a plugin that is not in your load order (any more). This could have happened if you built this patch and then removed a plugin from your load order. If so, you just need to rebuild the patch.
Works nicely! However if I want to change the values in enemy rules afterwards how I do apply changes into game? Do they come automatically when I save enemy rules.js? Or do I have to run zEdit again? (Tried latter though and it keeps saying "no patchers found")
You need to rebuild the patch according to the new rules, you do this by deleting the old patch and rerunning the patcher in zEdit (or synthesis if you use that). If zEdit is saying there are no patchers you need to reinstall the patcher in zEdit, though I'm not sure how it could accidentally lose it.
Hey, I've been thinking of adding this (through the Synthesis version) to my modlist and wanted to ask something about its usage. If I'm using an encounter zones mod, for the most cohesive result I should adjust the defaults to match those of the EZ mod right? For example, in Skyrim Revamped, Bandit camps range from lvl 6 to 32. So I guess I'd want to set bandit levels to 6-32 as well?
Hey, I actually don't think you need to adjust SRLEZ and the releveler in light of each other. They basically do different things. SRLEZ tells the game which enemy variants should appear in a given dungeon. The releveler changes what level those variants are.
Now, you might think "But, surely if SRLEZ limits a kind of dungeon to, say, level 20, and the releveler makes the top rank enemies that live there greatly exceed this cap, say level 50, then won't those enemies never appear?"
This is a slightly ambiguous bit of the engine, but my experience is "no, this is not the case". It's kinda complicated, but here's how I think it works: leveled enemy lists tag each enemy with the dungeon level at which it appears, and this does default to the enemy's level. So, if you make a leveled list, add a level 50 enemy to it, by default the list will only produce it when the dungeon is level 50 or higher (ignoring spawn multipliers for now). However, this value does not update if the enemy's level is subsequently changed. So, if a vanilla leveled list has a level 6 restless draugr flagged to appear in level 6 dungeons, but the releveler changes the level of restless draugr to 20, then the restless draugr is much stronger, but the leveled list is not changed meaning it still appears in level 6 dungeons. This is actually great, because it means EZ mods can freely change EZs on the basis of vanilla enemy levels, and it will still spawn the intended enemies, they will just be releveled according to the releveler. This works particularly well with static EZ mods like SRLEZ.
Ahh right I think I get it. The releveler relevels the actual NPCs, but the leveled lists those npcs are assigned to (which is what actually decided what will spawn) remain unchanged. Thanks for the explanation!
Btw this is a completely different topic but since this is kinda adjacent to the topic of static EZ/deleveled worlds I might as well ask. Have you ever thought of a good way to make random encounters fit better with that style of world? I'm not sure if a mod has tackled that before, sounds like something Requiem would do but I haven't played with it.
I tend to avoid random encounter mods as they often make the world feel overly dense. I don't really know how the systems work that spawn them. You could certainly relevel the actors involved, this would make encounters with some enemies really dangerous for low level characters - they'd probably just have to run away, which is a good thing for progression in my opinion.
I haven't actually tried this mod yet. I've installed it now in Synthesis with NPC stat rescaler. I've previously tried True Uneveled Skyrim, which turned out to be a bad experience, as it made level 62 draugr pop up in Bleak Falls Barrows for instance. Anyway, I'm just gonna go ahead and comment on this quote, so I make sure I understand you correctly.
"Hey, I actually don't think you need to adjust SRLEZ and the releveler in light of each other. They basically do different things. SRLEZ tells the game which enemy variants should appear in a given dungeon. The releveler changes what level those variants are."
The following is from the Skyrim Revamped: Loot and Encounter Zones mod page:
"In the first version of this mod, encounter zones were dependent on the dungeons location and enemy type in the dungeon. I've gone away from that idea and it now is more dependent on the dungeon as Bethesda presented it. By this I mean the length of the dungeon, the particular quests it has. The dungeons that are really intricate and interesting are typically a higher level but not always. For instance, Bleak Falls Barrow is level 12. Saarthal is 16. Because they are the beginning dungeons in the MQ and college, they are put at low levels but Forelhost is a level 71 Dungeon. This is because it is a long dungeon, has unique enemies, and Bethesda put it at a 24 minimum level which is their highest level for a dungeon. It would scale beyond that but they wanted a higher level character to experience it."
Doesn't this contradict what you are saying? Maybe I don't understand the system. But if changing an encounter zone, to say level 12, why would changing the NPC faction to say 15 do anything to the encounter zone? Unless one overrule the other regardless. My assumption would be, that changing a faction to say 12-45 (draugrfaction) and then changing an encounter zone in which draugr appear (Bleak Falls Barrow) would overrule the faction change, and set the encounter zone level per those settings, while draugr elsewhere or in the overworld, would the follow the faction change (i know there aren't draugr untied to encounter zones, but as an example). Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding this, and maybe this is also the reason I couldn't get TUS working properly (as I wanted starter dungeons to be lower level that the general faction maxlevel).
I hope you understand my question and will answer!
I don't think you understand how enemy spawning works in Skyrim, which is fine because its complicated and not very intuitive! I'll try to explain by responding to your points:
> But if changing an encounter zone, to say level 12, why would changing the NPC faction to say 15 do anything to the encounter zone? It doesn't. The releveler doesn't edit EZs at all, it only edits the NPCs themselves. It doesn't even edit the factions, it just uses faction membership to decide how to edit NPCs.
> My assumption would be, that changing a faction to say 12-45 (draugrfaction) and then changing an encounter zone in which draugr appear (Bleak Falls Barrow) would overrule the faction change, and set the encounter zone level per those settings, while draugr elsewhere or in the overworld, would the follow the faction change (i know there aren't draugr untied to encounter zones, but as an example) No, the changes of SRLEZ and the releveler are not in competition so they do not overrule each other.
SRLEZ edits the dungeon encounter zone range (LHS of top row), the releveler affects the level of spawned NPCs (RHS of bottom row). So, let's say you are in bleak falls barrow, and you are level 10. SRLEZ changes the ecounter zone to, let's say, <16, 16>. So now the dungeon level is 16. Suppose you are at an easy spawn point. With SRLEZ I think the easy spawn multiplier is 0.5, so the spawn level is 16*0.5 = 8. The game then looks up the enemy leveled list for bleakfalls barrow (basically a draugr list) and picks an enemy with a spawn level at or below 8. Suppose it picks a restless draugr (spawn level 6 I think). The restless draugr is spawned, but at this point (and only at this point) the releveler kicks in and causes its level to be something else (IIRC its 21).
Without the releveler the restless draugr would have its vanilla level of 6. Without SRLEZ the dungeon level would have been 10 and the easy multiplier would have been 0.33, causing the spawn level to be 3.33 and so a basic draugr (level 1) would have spawned instead. With only the releveler, but not SRLEZ, that basic draugr would have spawned, but its level would be 16.
Ahh ok! I think this makes sense, yes. You're right, I had no idea it worked that way, this also makes sense as to why the levels of TUS was so far off (way higher) than what I thought they would be. Having played a couple of hours now, it seems as the level of Relever+SRLEZ is turning out quite good, so probably not gonna try and mess with TUS again. Thank you very much for the detailed and quick response!
Since this can be included and configured via Synthesis patcher now - do i even need to download it from here anymore? Just wondering because i saw its on Synthesis found the json config file there as well and made the adjusments as per the instructions from this mod page.
Nevermind, i read the comment section here and found my answer however im running Dynamic Enhance Enemy Attributes with this Mod (via synthesis).....i wonder if i will get similar issues like people reported with NPC stat rescaler
Is it supposed to skip some warlocks? Some are vanilla Skyrim/Update.esm levels (level 1, 6, 19, 27 etc) instead of the minimum 24. Most mages work just fine (24+), but some of them don't obey the rules. It looks like many Forsworn don't obey the rules either.
How is it like with Zedit out of curiosity, does it change ALL of these no exceptions? I need to know because I'm not going through the trouble of manually sorting and selecting/deselecting 910 plugins just to build for Zedit and it doesn't fix anything. I'm only doing it if I know for sure it will affect every single NPC in the faction rules no exceptions.
Here's what I mean in SSEEDIT. Notice how some warlock records are yellow and others are green. Yellow means Synthesis actually changed the value to reflect the rules, while green means it didn't change at all. I want you to tell me if the Zedit patcher makes ALL of these yellow and nothing green?
In my testing it has always affected all NPCs in the factions, including Novice (etc.) mages and forsworn. Can you double check which records are not being edited, and then let me know their (1) template flags, (2) factions, and (3) formid.
If you are using MO2 you can always test on a minimal profile. That will give you a quick sense of if the issue is limited to synthesis, and if its being introduced by another mod somehow.
Yes, this is it. The green records inherit their level from other records so they don't need to be edited by the releveler. The releveler only edits records whose level is actually used (either for that NPC or as a template for other NPCs). Just to be clear, you never saw any incorrect levels in game, you just noticed that not all NPC records were being edited in xEdit? If so, then, yes, this is all correct behavior.
Oh that makes sense now. I actually do see them in game rarely, but I think they are only the ones spawned in by either Extra Encounters Reborn or Extended Encounters (idk which one exactly) because they are always in random places. They might be pulling actors from these green records somehow.
Glad to know Synthesis works as it should though, thanks for confirming.
Great. Chances are those encounter NPCs are not put in the correct factions, it normally doesn't matter as encounter NPCs are used in scripted events whereas factions drive free behavior, but it means the releveler skips them.
Yeah I think I found my issue, it's Extra Encounters Reborn using it's own templates (EEEnc-) for NPCs
Luckily it looks like Extended Encounters only taps into existing templates, no custom templates and no factions (so I can keep it). I'll only remove Extra Encounters Reborn from my LO.
You'll need to check out the factions the riverwood guards are in, and the level that owl sets them to, and then update the faction rules accordingly. If they were just in the guard faction then the releveler setting them to 52 would imply they were at around level 100 before the releveler ran. This doesn't seem likely, so they are probably being added to a different faction.
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I understand the basics. If you are level 3 and you come across bandits (4, 16), you will get level 4 bandits and if you are level 17 you will get level 16. You tweaked the minimum-maximum levels of the enemy type and kinda tiered them. So bandits are harder at low levels but easier later, but vampires are more difficult than bandits (36, 64).
Now, I understand that Skyrim has encounter zones with their own mix-max levels. If the mod overwrites all the min-max level of NPCs, does that mean that not using a mod to un/delevel encounter zones (meaning you get the vanilla min-max levels for the encounter zones) will overwrite the level of NPCs in these encounter zones no matter vanilla's min-max level in the encounter zones? What if the enemy type has a min-max level outside the range of the encounter zone min-max level?
No, this is not quite right. The truth is more like: "If you are level 3 and you come across a bandit dungeon (with EZ 4, 16), you will get a level 4 bandit dungeon and if you are level 17 you will get a level 16 bandit dungeon." However, this is a summary of dungeon levels and EZs which the releveler does not edit.
> You tweaked the minimum-maximum levels of the enemy type and kinda tiered them. So bandits are harder at low levels but easier later, but vampires are more difficult than bandits (36, 64).
This is correct.
> does that mean that not using a mod to un/delevel encounter zones (meaning you get the vanilla min-max levels for the encounter zones) will overwrite the level of NPCs in these encounter zones no matter vanilla's min-max level in the encounter zones?
No, EZs do not affect the level of NPCs at all, it just determines which NPCs appear, and this is actually independent of the NPCs level (or at least independent of the releveler's changes to those levels).
> What if the enemy type has a min-max level outside the range of the encounter zone min-max level?
The game will continue to spawn those enemies. Say a particular spawn point produces a draugr wight. The game does not actually check the level of the wight when deciding what to spawn. As such, even if you use the releveler to set the wight's level to 999, it will still spawn.
The key is to realize that its not enemies that level with the player, but dungeons. The flow of causality is kinda like this:
player level AND encounter zone -> dungeon level
dungeon level AND spawn multipliers -> spawn level
spawn level AND leveled list -> NPC
But, a key thing is that the spawn level is not the level of the NPC that actually appears, spawn level is just a calculated value used to pick which NPC is spawned. Here's a more worked example:
player level = 28; encounter zone = [1, 16] -> -> dungeon level = 16
dungeon level = 16; spawn multiplier = 0.5 -> -> spawn level = 8
leveled list = {
spawn level | NPC
1 | Draugr (level 1)
6 | Restless Draugr (level 6)
13 | Draugr Wight (level 13)
}; spawn level = 8 -> -> spawned NPC = Restless Draugr (level 6)
So in the case above, the level of the NPCs does in fact match their spawn level in the leveled list. However, this does not need to be the case, and this is what the releveler takes advantage of. It changes the level of the NPCs so the leveled list looks like this:
leveled list = {
spawn level | NPC
1 | Draugr (level 14)
6 | Restless Draugr (level 16)
13 | Draugr Wight (level 18)
}
Because the spawn levels (and EZs etc) are not changed at all, the same NPCs are spawned, however, their levels are different. Like this:
player level = 28; encounter zone = [1, 16] -> -> dungeon level = 16
dungeon level = 16; spawn multiplier = 0.5 -> -> spawn level = 8
leveled list = {
spawn level | NPC
1 | Draugr (level 14)
6 | Restless Draugr (level 16)
13 | Draugr Wight (level 18)
}; spawn level = 8 -> -> spawned NPC = Restless Draugr (level 16)
Does this help at all?
Because I'm wondering if Requiem handles enemy levels in a sensible enough way, such as for example not having to clear a whole a dungeon and things to go smoothly only to find out that the final boss is impossibly hard to defeat (much higher level than the rest), thus not being able to complete that dungeon for a while. I know that Enemy Releveler somewhat fixes this issue, but what about Requiem? Or does it have its own way handling this issue so that there is no need for Enemy Releveler as well, any idea?
> I'm wondering if Requiem handles enemy levels in a sensible enough way, such as for example not having to clear a whole a dungeon and things to go smoothly only to find out that the final boss is impossibly hard to defeat
This is a good point, and this is indeed what the releveler fixes. If you want to figure out you need to find the level ranges for requiem's enemies. The problem in vanilla arises because some bosses are way higher level than their grunts. So bandit chiefs are 28x the level of bandits, and draugr death overlords are 45x the level of basic draugr. With the releveler these differences are x4 and x3 respectively (it is the level ratio, not the absolute level difference that matters IMO). You should find requiem's documentation to see what level it gives enemies. If the ratios from basic to boss are less than 5 it's probably fine. If not, you might want to run the releveler, but you'll need to adjust the faction_rules file first.
Also came across many strange situations where the Releveler is touching Followers NPCS like the companions because it seems like they have the Guard Faction Keyword, capping their level.
Then I have some enemies like this Sabre Cat added by Animallica, getting lvl cap increase instead. If I understand the mod right, the max level should be capped at 12 or 18, not increased to 135.
For that sabre cat, the rule is:
Sabre Cats: [6, 12] -> [10, 18]
This means a level 12 sabre cat gets set to level 18, and level 12 is the upper limit of vanilla sabre cats, so level 18 will be the upper limit after the releveler runs. But the one from animallica has a upper bound of level 100, this is waaaay beyond vanilla limits, and so it ends up way beyond the relevelers limits after it runs too. Ultimately, this is a design choice from animallica - it takes a fixed-level vanilla enemy type that ranges from level 6 to 12, and adds in a level scaling variant that goes all the way up to level 100. The releveler adjusts things, but keeps this design in place: vanilla sabre cats are static leveled, just a bit harder, while the scaling cats added by animallica keep their scaling, and their level bounds are made a little harder too.
As for the companions, yes, they will be edited too, though I can't tell what concern you are having. Same for the dragons. If you give more information I can clarify things.
I was reading comments and I thought that enemies added by mods would be adjusted by Releveler rules. But now you are saying that because they are way beyond vanilla limits
As for the companions, my concern is that some them are Followers. I guess it's ok if someone is willing to go through xEdit and remove the lvl caps from the Releveler manually but maybe the mod should add some kind of rule to not touch Followers lvls.
For Dragons I don't know why the Releveler patch end up up between Deadly Dragons and Dragons Use Thu'Um. Tried to increase the Releveler plugin priority but it won't go higher than Dragons Use Thu'Um.
If we generalize the rule to "[a, b] -> [c, d]", and apply this to an enemy of level L, their new level N, is:
N = ((L-a)/(b-a)) * (d-c) + c
Taking your level 100 sabre cat added by animallica, this becomes:
N = ((100-6)/(12-6)) * (18-10) + 10 = 94/6 * 8 + 10 = 135
Your point about followers is a good one. It sounds like I might need to add a companions faction, such that the guard faction doesn't grab them. Otherwise adding some kind of exception for followers is a good fix.
Your dragons issue sounds odd. Are you using vortex? It might be a problem with that. But in general, you should run patchers at the very end of building your load order and the resulting patching should load last.
Now, you might think "But, surely if SRLEZ limits a kind of dungeon to, say, level 20, and the releveler makes the top rank enemies that live there greatly exceed this cap, say level 50, then won't those enemies never appear?"
This is a slightly ambiguous bit of the engine, but my experience is "no, this is not the case". It's kinda complicated, but here's how I think it works: leveled enemy lists tag each enemy with the dungeon level at which it appears, and this does default to the enemy's level. So, if you make a leveled list, add a level 50 enemy to it, by default the list will only produce it when the dungeon is level 50 or higher (ignoring spawn multipliers for now). However, this value does not update if the enemy's level is subsequently changed. So, if a vanilla leveled list has a level 6 restless draugr flagged to appear in level 6 dungeons, but the releveler changes the level of restless draugr to 20, then the restless draugr is much stronger, but the leveled list is not changed meaning it still appears in level 6 dungeons. This is actually great, because it means EZ mods can freely change EZs on the basis of vanilla enemy levels, and it will still spawn the intended enemies, they will just be releveled according to the releveler. This works particularly well with static EZ mods like SRLEZ.
Btw this is a completely different topic but since this is kinda adjacent to the topic of static EZ/deleveled worlds I might as well ask. Have you ever thought of a good way to make random encounters fit better with that style of world? I'm not sure if a mod has tackled that before, sounds like something Requiem would do but I haven't played with it.
I haven't actually tried this mod yet. I've installed it now in Synthesis with NPC stat rescaler. I've previously tried True Uneveled Skyrim, which turned out to be a bad experience, as it made level 62 draugr pop up in Bleak Falls Barrows for instance. Anyway, I'm just gonna go ahead and comment on this quote, so I make sure I understand you correctly.
"Hey, I actually don't think you need to adjust SRLEZ and the releveler in light of each other. They basically do different things. SRLEZ tells the game which enemy variants should appear in a given dungeon. The releveler changes what level those variants are."
The following is from the Skyrim Revamped: Loot and Encounter Zones mod page:
"In the first version of this mod, encounter zones were dependent on the dungeons location and enemy type in the dungeon. I've gone away from that idea and it now is more dependent on the dungeon as Bethesda presented it. By this I mean the length of the dungeon, the particular quests it has. The dungeons that are really intricate and interesting are typically a higher level but not always. For instance, Bleak Falls Barrow is level 12. Saarthal is 16. Because they are the beginning dungeons in the MQ and college, they are put at low levels but Forelhost is a level 71 Dungeon. This is because it is a long dungeon, has unique enemies, and Bethesda put it at a 24 minimum level which is their highest level for a dungeon. It would scale beyond that but they wanted a higher level character to experience it."
Doesn't this contradict what you are saying? Maybe I don't understand the system. But if changing an encounter zone, to say level 12, why would changing the NPC faction to say 15 do anything to the encounter zone? Unless one overrule the other regardless. My assumption would be, that changing a faction to say 12-45 (draugrfaction) and then changing an encounter zone in which draugr appear (Bleak Falls Barrow) would overrule the faction change, and set the encounter zone level per those settings, while draugr elsewhere or in the overworld, would the follow the faction change (i know there aren't draugr untied to encounter zones, but as an example). Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding this, and maybe this is also the reason I couldn't get TUS working properly (as I wanted starter dungeons to be lower level that the general faction maxlevel).
I hope you understand my question and will answer!
Sincerely
~Halde
> But if changing an encounter zone, to say level 12, why would changing the NPC faction to say 15 do anything to the encounter zone?
It doesn't. The releveler doesn't edit EZs at all, it only edits the NPCs themselves. It doesn't even edit the factions, it just uses faction membership to decide how to edit NPCs.
> My assumption would be, that changing a faction to say 12-45 (draugrfaction) and then changing an encounter zone in which draugr appear (Bleak Falls Barrow) would overrule the faction change, and set the encounter zone level per those settings, while draugr elsewhere or in the overworld, would the follow the faction change (i know there aren't draugr untied to encounter zones, but as an example)
No, the changes of SRLEZ and the releveler are not in competition so they do not overrule each other.
The engine works as follows:
{player level + dungeon encounter zone range} -> dungeon level
{dungeon level + spawn point multiplier} -> spawn level
{spawn level + leveled lists} -> spawned NPC
SRLEZ edits the dungeon encounter zone range (LHS of top row), the releveler affects the level of spawned NPCs (RHS of bottom row). So, let's say you are in bleak falls barrow, and you are level 10. SRLEZ changes the ecounter zone to, let's say, <16, 16>. So now the dungeon level is 16. Suppose you are at an easy spawn point. With SRLEZ I think the easy spawn multiplier is 0.5, so the spawn level is 16*0.5 = 8. The game then looks up the enemy leveled list for bleakfalls barrow (basically a draugr list) and picks an enemy with a spawn level at or below 8. Suppose it picks a restless draugr (spawn level 6 I think). The restless draugr is spawned, but at this point (and only at this point) the releveler kicks in and causes its level to be something else (IIRC its 21).
Without the releveler the restless draugr would have its vanilla level of 6. Without SRLEZ the dungeon level would have been 10 and the easy multiplier would have been 0.33, causing the spawn level to be 3.33 and so a basic draugr (level 1) would have spawned instead. With only the releveler, but not SRLEZ, that basic draugr would have spawned, but its level would be 16.
Does this make sense?
I think this makes sense, yes. You're right, I had no idea it worked that way, this also makes sense as to why the levels of TUS was so far off (way higher) than what I thought they would be. Having played a couple of hours now, it seems as the level of Relever+SRLEZ is turning out quite good, so probably not gonna try and mess with TUS again.
Thank you very much for the detailed and quick response!
however im running Dynamic Enhance Enemy Attributes with this Mod (via synthesis).....i wonder if i will get similar issues like people reported with NPC stat rescaler
How is it like with Zedit out of curiosity, does it change ALL of these no exceptions? I need to know because I'm not going through the trouble of manually sorting and selecting/deselecting 910 plugins just to build for Zedit and it doesn't fix anything. I'm only doing it if I know for sure it will affect every single NPC in the faction rules no exceptions.
Here's what I mean in SSEEDIT. Notice how some warlock records are yellow and others are green. Yellow means Synthesis actually changed the value to reflect the rules, while green means it didn't change at all. I want you to tell me if the Zedit patcher makes ALL of these yellow and nothing green?
If you are using MO2 you can always test on a minimal profile. That will give you a quick sense of if the issue is limited to synthesis, and if its being introduced by another mod somehow.
Yellow record warlock (yellow = actually follows the rules and forwarded correctly by Synthesis)
I notice in the non-obeying (green) record the Use Stats, Use Base Data, Use Spell List are not ticked. Does this have something to do with it?
yes I am using MO2. Did the whole profile switch thing with no NVICO, reran Synthesis and the issue is still there.
Glad to know Synthesis works as it should though, thanks for confirming.
Luckily it looks like Extended Encounters only taps into existing templates, no custom templates and no factions (so I can keep it). I'll only remove Extra Encounters Reborn from my LO.