Does the fix only affect the perk, or does it also affect bone wolf and the bloodworm helm? I don't have the necromage perk yet, I only have the bone dog and I can't seem to get the boost from it.
Also want to know this because I use Ordinator which removes the necromage perk but I would also like to use the Bone Wolk buff as a vampire but it appears to not be working although (ill have to double check) I think by default with USSEP the bloodworm helm still works.
So I installed the mod and it wasn't working until I activated the necro-mage perk and only became a vampire afterwards. Then it worked as intended for a while (eg my "destruction spells cost 32% less magicka to cast" enchantments became minus 40% in the active affects section). But recently for some armor enchantments the boost vanished, while it was still applied to other enchanted items I was wearing at the same time. I transformed into a vampire lord and back and reequipped all items. Now the boost is completely gone. Anyone any ideas why this might be happening? I did not change anything, except for installing 3 completely unrelated mods. I removed them again, just in case, but this also did not help.
Here is a list of all the features affected by the Necromage perk, you can use any of them to check in your game if the mod works. For example, if you're a vampire necromage and the Muffle spell lasts longer than it should on you (and you don't have any other effects that extends the duration, of course) then it means that it works.
Nope, the spells like Agent of Mara don't come from you, it's from Mara or your clothes and aedric star constellations, it's effective 'against' the player. The target must still be undead and as you're a vampire you're the target of all Necromage affected spells, that's how it works in the first place. It works as described. As Bethesda never stated it clearly the target can't be the player character, it's the same as signing a contract. Try signing a contract with Molag Bal for example and see for youself. I bet there's work for a good lawyer PS how about Bethesda's 'all rocks cast shadows except those with Multilayer Parallax and mountains'... really confusing isn't it? USSEP 'fixes' that as well but I'm not sure if there isn't a catch, like 20 fps drops
No. They come from you as in *you* are the one casting spells against undead. If you look at the way the perk is set up and the way the description is worded, there is no evidence that 25% more magnitude and 50% more duration should affect the spells that you cast on yourself as well. They simply forgot to add the player condition.
There's no lore friendly explanation of Bethesda setting that restriction. But we all know all spells come from Magnus and player just wields magicka so Magnus is the caster and the player is the target. Have a nice 149 seconds of dual cast Dragonhide... we don't need armors, we vampires, we kewl PS I will try experimenting on Cast_Shadows flag in my hi poly glacier stuff. I wonder is Bethesda knew better, as decent fps drops are expected unless you have gtx980ti or higher
The word "against" in this case means "in opposition to". You can't cast spells in opposition to yourself. The USLEEP fix is correct. Your convoluted attempts to justify the vanilla mistake are simply to justify more power to your vampire build to make this easy game less challenging than it already is.
If we follow that reasoning to it's logical conclusion, then the fact that the "Blood on the Ice" quest getting stuck and never progressing if Wuunferth is arrested without you talking to Calixto beforehand is also an example of "Bethesda implemented it that way and that's the way it was supposed to work" and the USSEP is overstepping it's boundaries by fixing the bug.
Fact is Vampires are undead. It's logical that Necromage would affect them. We don't know if Bethesda intended it to work that way and there's no reason to think they wouldn't have so why consider it a bug.
Because it *is* a bug. If how the description was worded isn't enough, someone please tell me the reason why that perk should affect enchanted gear as well. You wear an Iron Armor of Health and with that perk on automagically your buffed health raises from 30 to 37. If this isn't a bug I don't know what a bug is.
"All SPELLS are more effective AGAINST undead". Meaning that *spells* [not enchantments] that the player casts on *other* undead are more effective [by 25%].
The perk is missing the player condition, it's simple as that.
A) There are no bugged descriptions in the entire game in regard to the perk intents. It's either typos or wrong magnitudes / durations. B) So what? Technically, poisons are spells as well and there's no logical reason why they should be affected either.
I'd bet everything I have that if the bug had a negative effect on your game you'd be all screaming FIX IT at the USSEP team. Enjoying the exploit is fine, not admitting that it's indeed an exploit is not.
Look, people. Why don't you just admit that you want this exploit to remain unpatched because you want to take advantage of it to make your vampire character more powerful than they would be without it. I'm not going to think any less of you if you simply tell the truth and I'm sure at least most of the people refuting your arguments won't either. Entirely different story for people who think that they are entitled to unrestricted access to this exploit or that the expert modders behind the Unofficial Skyrim Patch secretly have no idea what they are doing simply because they patched it out.
And yes, this is definitely an exploit:
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/exploit Exploit Noun (Digital Technology) The use of a bug or flaw in game design to a player’s advantage or to the disadvantage of other players.
Also:
A) It wouldn´t be the first description that is bugged.
In addition to dAb's comment, what exactly is this supposed to prove? How do you know that the description for this particular perk is bugged? Do you have any evidence supporting this claim (an Association Fallacy is not evidence) or is your argument actually fuelled by what I've said above?
Fact is Vampires are undead. It's logical that Necromage would affect them.
This is a Non-sequitur. It does not follow that, because NPC vampires are affected by Necromage, that PC vampires should likewise be affected, especially when the perk's description doesn't allow for this. Is your attempt to justify the existence of this exploit being fuelled by what I've said above?
It is probably an exploit, XJDHDR, but reciting the names of a bunch of fallacies you learned in Intro to Logic 101 doesn't really support that point at all. Simply calling something a fallacy isn't enough to falsify the claim, and can often be invoked even when something is clearly correct but some conditions are only implied.
When he referred to the description being "bugged", he meant that its wording is ambiguous, or in opposition to what it actually does (or in this case, what it is supposed to do). If you can push your hands together, you are exerting a force against yourself, so casting a spell on yourself doesn't seem all that odd. If you were to take the description at face value, spells being more effective on you, an undead creature, makes perfect sense. This isn't the intended interaction, but there it is because they forgot to specify otherwise on both the description and the actual effect.
@hacnsm First, I'm going to assume that English is not your first language. I'm doing so because you said a lot of strange things (eg. that there is nothing odd about casting spells on yourself, even though this is a core game mechanic in just about every game that has a magic or magic-like system and so there is no reason why it would be odd to begin with. And I never argued that casting spells on yourself was strange). Thus, my advice is that if you are not absolutely sure about what someone is saying, it is not a good idea to add your opinion to the discussion or disagree with them. All you're going to do is say things that are completely wrong and cause people to have to repeat themselves explaining something that has already been established.
Next, the foundation of your argument appears to be your claim that the perk's description allows for the perk to affect self-cast spells. Let's look at what the perk's description actually says:
All spells are more effective against undead.
The key word here is "against". Let's look at the definition of "against":
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/against Against (preposition) 1. in opposition to; contrary to; adverse or hostile to: twenty votes against ten; against reason. 2. in resistance to or defence from: protection against burglars. 3. in an opposite direction to: to ride against the wind.
In short, the USSEP fix is correct. This perk's description clearly indicates that it is supposed to only affect spells that are cast in opposition to or with hostility to a target (i.e. enemy actors). This is the part that those who want the exploit have failed to explain; how does wearing an enchanted item or casting a shield or healing spell on yourself qualify as casting the spell "in opposition to" or "with hostility to" yourself? I suspect that they haven't tried to explain because there is no rational explanation.
It is probably an exploit
What do you mean "probably"? It IS an exploit. I quoted a dictionary definition which the situation with this perk perfectly lines up with. The only way you could argue that this isn't an exploit is by arguing that the dictionary definition is wrong. If you want to pursue thus line of reasoning, you are going to have to present evidence.
but reciting the names of a bunch of fallacies you learned in Intro to Logic 101 doesn't really support that point at all. Simply calling something a fallacy isn't enough to falsify the claim, and can often be invoked even when something is clearly correct but some conditions are only implied.
You have committed a number of fallacies with this statement. There is the straw-man argument for falsely claiming that I am using logic to prove people wrong (I pointed out the fallacies to demonstrate that they didn't prove anything, not that they were wrong), falsely claiming that I am blindly throwing out logical fallacies without care as to whether they apply to the situation (which you made no effort to prove), falsely claiming that I am using only logic and nothing more to prove people wrong (hint: when someone quotes a dictionary, it's not a good idea to claim that they have no evidence, in addition to the above) and falsely claiming that I am a logic newbie (I "graduated" from that "class" a long time ago). There is also the ad-hominem for attempting to demonstrate that I am wrong by criticizing my use of logic instead of demonstrating that what I have said is wrong. And that last bit is complete nonsense. Logical fallacies are never justifiable, especially when something is clearly correct. If something is clearly correct, you don't need fallacies to prop it up; evidence can support the claim all by itself.
When he referred to the description being "bugged", he meant that its wording is ambiguous, or in opposition to what it actually does (or in this case, what it is supposed to do).
Let's compare what you claim UrizenDe said with what he actually said. UrizenDe said that the description is bugged in response to dAb saying:
If how the description was worded isn't enough, ... "All SPELLS are more effective AGAINST undead". Meaning that *spells* [not enchantments] that the player casts on *other* undead are more effective [by 25%].
UrizenDe is not arguing that the description is ambiguous, he is arguing that it is wrong: That Bethesda's intent was for the perk to say something like "...more effective ON undead" rather than against.
If you can push your hands together, you are exerting a force against yourself, so casting a spell on yourself doesn't seem all that odd.
Again, casting beneficial spells on yourself does not qualify as "in opposition to" yourself and so there is no rational reason why the perk should affect them, even taking into account that pushing your hands against each other (an unrelated action) means that each hand is in opposition to the force the other hand applies.
If you were to take the description at face value, spells being more effective on you, an undead creature, makes perfect sense. This isn't the intended interaction, but there it is because they forgot to specify otherwise on both the description and the actual effect.
Considering my explanation above about how the word "against" in the perk's description demolishes this part of your argument and how others such as dAb, sirjesto and the USSEP team all came to the same conclusion; I would love to see you explain how the perk affecting the PC makes perfect sense or how the perk's description doesn't exclude beneficial spells from it's effect.
The key word here is "against". Let's look at the definition of "against": https://www.dictionary.com/browse/against Against (preposition) 1. in opposition to; contrary to; adverse or hostile to: twenty votes against ten; against reason. 2. in resistance to or defence from: protection against burglars. 3. in an opposite direction to: to ride against the wind.
Equilibrium cast on self, Necromantic Healing cast on undead, etc. etc.. Word salad arguments are fun.
However, you left one definition out from dictionary.com:
4. into contact or collision with; toward; upon: The rain beat against the window.
Or in Skyrim context: Casting Equilibrium, the increased power of the Vampire-Mage's spell railed against and swelled upon him, simultaneously draining his health while restoring his magicka.
I would argue the demolishing effects of your explanation of "against" in the perk's description have been lessened. Regardless, given the poor game design (i.e., alchemy, smithing and enchanting builds) of Bethesda, it's nice both sides have options in this debate; use the USSEP patch as is or use it with the reverted Necromage perk patch.
I find it fascinating that the recent posts in this thread have all been targeting me specifically, even though I am not the only or even first one to disagree with them.
Equilibrium cast on self, Necromantic Healing cast on undead, etc. etc..
Your point being what exactly? The argument I and others made is that Necromage is bugged. How does noting it's effects on various spells refute this?
Word salad arguments are fun.
Is this an admission that "you want this exploit to remain unpatched because you want to take advantage of it to make your vampire character more powerful than they would be without it?" That you are trying to wring out an interpretation that fits your preconceived notions instead of accepting the straightforward interpretation? Also, you have committed the Ad Hominem fallacy. My posts are not the ramblings of someone with a mental disorder.
However, you left one definition out from dictionary.com:
4. into contact or collision with; toward; upon: The rain beat against the window.
I did no such thing. When I quoted those definitions, that fourth one wasn't there so it's a recent addition. Ultimately though, it's irrelevant. That definition doesn't apply because:
Or in Skyrim context: Casting Equilibrium, the increased power of the Vampire-Mage's spell railed against and swelled upon him, simultaneously draining his health while restoring his magicka.
This makes zero sense. When you cast a spell on yourself, it doesn't lose contact with you for a while then come into contact with you again. Nor does it fly off in some direction, make a U-turn then forcefully collide with your character. The only time spells collide with anything is when someone casts a targeted (not touch) spell at a different target. Self-cast spells are not colliding with anything. Neither are touch spells, abilities, perks, enchantments, poisons, potions, etc. In fact, most of those things aren't even spells and yet unpatched Necromage affects them. There is no basis for arguing that Necromage should affect any of these situations, even if this was the correct definition of against in this context (which it isn't). Furthermore, if vanilla Necromage is the intended behaviour, there is no reason why it should only affect the above after they are applied to the player and not retroactively boosted upon getting Necromage.
When a word has multiple definitions, the proper interpretation method is to take the most straightforward interpretation, not the one that best aligns with your interests (i.e. Confirmation Bias).
I would argue the demolishing effects of your explanation of "against" in the perk's description have been lessened.
You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it true.
Regardless, given the poor game design (i.e., alchemy, smithing and enchanting builds) of Bethesda, it's nice both sides have options in this debate; use the USSEP patch as is or use it with the reverted Necromage perk patch.
That the game design is bad is another opinion, not a fact. Also, this fallacy is a Straw Man Argument. This is what I have said previously:
Why don't you just admit that you want this exploit to remain unpatched because you want to take advantage of it to make your vampire character more powerful than they would be without it. I'm not going to think any less of you if you simply tell the truth and I'm sure at least most of the people refuting your arguments won't either. Entirely different story for people who think that they deserve access to this exploit or that the expert modders behind the Unofficial Skyrim Patch secretly have no idea what they are doing simply because they patched it out.
My issue has never been the existence of this mod. It is the entitlement of the people posting here, the USSEP team bashing and the logical gymnastics that people are engaging in to try "prove" that there is nothing wrong with Necromage; the USSEP team is just secretly plotting to ruin Skyrim for everyone.
I'll admit that I want this because I want to exploit it. This is a singleplayer game. There is no honor in increasing its difficulty or playing it in a completely broken way. If part of the fun of gameplay is using these exploits, then great. If you want to add a mod that increases difficulty or even results in perma-death, there are mods for this too. I really wish there were a comprehensive mod to unfix all of the "fixes" that don't truly fix anything at all.
The problem is, much of what the USSEP team "fixes" are not true bugs. There is far too much editorializing. If USSEP focused on game-breaking bugs, bugs that stopped quests from proceeding, clear visual glitches, and the like, then it would be perfect. But throw in a dash of arrogance (and let's not deny that at least one key member of the team is fairly puffed up with this), and they are finding more "bugs" than I saw when I was detoxing from alcohol.
This is a singleplayer game. There is no honor in increasing its difficulty ... If you want to add a mod that increases difficulty or even results in perma-death, there are mods for this too.
You're contradicting yourself here. You are saying that it is fine to make your game more difficult while simultaneously arguing that there is no honour in doing so. So which is it? Also, on what basis are you dictating how other people should play the game?
I'll admit that I want this because I want to exploit it. ... There is no honor in ... playing it in a completely broken way. If part of the fun of gameplay is using these exploits, then great.
You're also contradicting yourself here. Playing the game in a completely broken way is exactly what an exploit is so there is both no honour in using exploits and it's also perfectly okay to do so. So which is it?
The problem is, much of what the USSEP team "fixes" are not true bugs. There is far too much editorializing.
Where is your evidence for any of these assertions? What proof do you have that most of the USSEP fixes are not bugs? Nothing more than perusing the changelog would quickly show how wrong this claim is. Actually, I'll make things easier. Here is the list of changes for version 4.1.4. Please demonstrate how most of these changes have nothing to do with fixing bugs. Oh, and make sure you use an objective definition of a bug and not one that is just your opinion:
Spoiler:
Show
Actor Fixes
Threki the Innocent should not be capable of sending thugs to attack the player for stealing stuff in the Riften jail. (Bug #23050) The reference to the dragon at Mount Anthor had an incorrect override on the DragonActorScript that may have blocked various properties and thus caused it to not reset properly once killed for the first time. No other dragon seems to have this sort of override present. (Bug #21951) [NR] Two guards outside of Understone Keep had overlapping AI which resulted in them both trying to occupy the same post for 2 hours. (Bug #24785)
Item Fixes
Bound daggers should now be properly transparent when summoned. (meshes\ussep\weapons\boundweapons\bounddagger.nif) (Bug #22357) The empty satchel (TreasSatchelEMPTY) added by Hearthfire and used in Vlindrel Hall when the children's bedroom is purchased was mistakenly flagged to respawn. Storing items inside of it could result in them being lost as a result. (Bug #24478)
Location Fixes
Navmesh in cell -22,6 was missing some border crossings which caused NPCs in the area to leave the road when traveling through. (Bug #24721) Navmesh in cell FortSungardCourtyard was missing border crossings on its west side. (Bug #24627)
Magic, Perk & Skill Fixes
The crReduceDamage035 perk introduced by Dawnguard suffers the same bug as the two vanilla perks for the same purpose. Instead of reducing damage incoming to the NPC using it, it was increasing their attack damage instead. (Bug #24764) The 3 new rune spells added by the Dragonborn DLC were set to use the wrong decal for their effects. (DLC2RuneAshProjectile, DLC2RuneFrenzyProjectile, DLC2RunePoisonProjectile) (Bug #24403) The Silent Moons enchantment has unnecessary effects attached after the earlier USKP fix to correct the magic effect times. (dunSilentMoonsEnchWeapon01, dunSilentMoonsEnchWeapon02, dunSilentMoonsEnchWeapon03) (Bug #24401) The Staff of Magnus effect does not function correctly due to improper handling of the absorption effects it comes with. (Bug #24359) Wisp's Kiss is using the wrong speed multiplier value when affecting the player. It should be 50 instead of 5, which matches up with the way all other slowdown effects work. (Bug #24404) Mora's Agony, Tentacle Damage, and Poison Rune were not properly flagged with poison resistance to counter them as they should have been. (Bug #24402)
Mesh and Texture Fixes
Interior Whiterun wall piece with a layer separated away from its background. (meshes\architecture\whiterun\wrinteriors\wrintwallststr01.nif) (Bug #24499)
Quest Fixes
Truth Ore Consequences (FreeformRiften17) incorrectly sets disposition for Filnjar instead of Hafjorg when it ends. (Bug #24400) Whiterun guards stationed at the Western Watchtower should not be delivering the line about Riverwood not having a wall since it refers to the city walls in Whiterun itself. (Bug #24331) During Discerning the Transmundane (DA04) if the player does not take the Elder Scroll and eventually goes on to end the quest without doing so, it becomes impossible to take the scroll due to the activator being set for an alias in DA04 itself. The activator should instead be set to use the alias in MQ00 to get the scroll since MQ00 is a background quest that is never terminated during the life of the game. (Bug #22423) The Affairs of Hagravens (dunBlindCliffQST) does not correctly terminate objectives when either of the hagravens are killed because both of them are checking for a prerequisite stage that requires you to open Melka's cage when this should only be checking to make sure Melka has tried to get the player's attention. (Bug #20117) [NR] When speaking to Peryite's vision, it was possible for the player to appear stuck after tabbing out of dialogue. This was due to a script having a bad check on the heading angles when facing the fume pot. (Bug #24777)
Placement/Layout/Ownership and other World Object Fixes
0009F118, 0009F149: Misplaced dressers. (Bug #24314) 0009F121: Misplaced cupboard. (Bug #24314) 0009F124, 0009F125: Misplaced sacks. (Bug #24314) 0009F137, 0009F138: Floating rubble piles. (Bug #24314) 000B3B3C: Misplaced snow drift. (Bug #24315) 000F1C26: Wooden cooking spit moved that was clipping into another next to it. (Bug #24315) 04026763: Floating ash dune. (Bug #24315) 05089115, 05089116, 05089117, 05089118: Boulders placed to cover up overlapping cave pieces. (Bug #24315) 0005B154: Misplaced table. (Bug #24320) 000B8EA5: Misplaced hanging pelt. (Bug #24320) 000DC68B: Basket with an incorrect enable parent setting. (Bug #24334) 0009F0E8, 0009F0EA, 0009F0EB, 0009F0F2, 0009F0F3, 0009F0F4, 000AA351: Misplaced beds. (Bug #24364, Bug #24314) 000AA3BD: Misplaced bucket. (Bug #24364) 000ABBBB, 000ABBBC: Moved a clipping shelf and cupboard. Various items [Ref 000ABBE5, 000ABBE6, 000ABBE7, 000ABBE8, 000ABBF2, 000ABBF3, 000ABBF4] placed on them were adjusted as well. (Bug #24364) 000F27A4: Misplaced ruined book. (Bug #24364) 0004F077: Floating road chunk. (Bug #24395) 00100149: Adjusted floating floor pelt. (Bug #24439) 05000821: Dirt mound added to cover gap in cave floor. (Bug #24439) 05000822, 0500082C: Rocks added to cover gaps. (Bug #24466, Bug #24395) 0002C0A1, 0005419B, 0006E2C5, 000B45E1, 000E7DB4, 000E7DDD: Misplaced rock piles. (Bug #24494, Bug #24439, Bug #24395, Bug #24320) 0006EB72: Misplaced stone wall piece. (Bug #24552) 0508911B, 0508911C, 0508911D, 0508911E, 0508911F, 05089120: Rock piles placed to cover up gaps. (Bug #24602, Bug #24315) 000ABD80: Floating brewery cask. (Bug #24605) 000D4AAC: Floating hay scatter. (Bug #24605) 000D9D53: Misplaced wardrobe. (Bug #24605) 000FF74D, 000FF74E, 000FF74F, 000FF750, 000FF751, 000FF752, 000FF753, 000FF754, 000FF755, 000FF756, 000FF757, 000FF758: Misplaced crates. (Bug #24613) 0009B657: Floating rock. (Bug #24651) 000619B4, 00094A0D, 00099608: Misplaced rocks. (Bug #24752, Bug #24395) 0009F122, 0009F123, 000B45D5, 000B45D6, 000B45D7, 000B45D8, 000B45D9, 000B45DA, 000B45DB, 000B45DC, 000B45DD, 000B45DE, 000BEC63, 000E5E80, 000E5E81: Misplaced barrels. (Bug #24752, Bug #24613, Bug #24494, Bug #24314) 000DE9B5: Misplaced candelabra. (Bug #24752) 05089119, 0508911A: Road chunks added to cover a gap underneath a rock shelf. (Bug #24752) 000BB723, 000EA947: Floating trees. (Bug #24762, Bug #24576) 05089121, 05089122: Rocks placed to cover a gap at the base of a mountain peak. (Bug #24782) 0006D92B, 0006DDBE, 000E6BD7, 000EBF3E: Misplaced flowers and other flora. (Bug #24783) 00043937, 00043938, 000481E1, 0004BD1C, 0004BD1F, 0004BD22, 00059A1C, 00059A1D, 0006D641, 0006F2F7, 0008826F, 0009CBF6, 0009CBFA, 0009CBFB, 0009CBFD, 0009CBFE, 0009CEE2, 000A06F7, 000A06F8, 000A06F9, 000A06FA, 000A06FC, 000A06FD, 000AB115, 000B500D, 000BBBB8, 000BBBB9, 000C8E86, 000D9A10, 000E6BE5, 000EBF3C, 000FCD63, 000FCD64, 000FCD67, 01000CEB, 01000CEC, 01000CEE, 01000CFB, 01000D08, 01000D09, 01000D12, 01000D16, 01000D1A, 01000D1B, 01000D1C, 01000D1D, 01000D1F, 01000D23, 01000D30, 01000D33, 010011C3, 01001697, 01001F5C, 0100205F, 0100207D: Misplaced thickets and shrubs. (Bug #24784)
Text Fixes SkillPickpocket2: "Eslaf guessed that that if Suoibud was as paranoid as he guessed him to be, the tower would also provide a view of the palace storehouse." -> "Eslaf guessed that if Suoibud was as paranoid as he guessed him to be, the tower would also provide a view of the palace storehouse." (Bug #24322) DA15 [Stage 10]: "To do so, I need to gain entrance to the Pelagius Wing of the Blue palace." -> "To do so, I need to gain entrance to the Pelagius Wing of the Blue Palace." (Bug #24325) CWMission03 [Stage 200]: "I have successfully intercepted and turned in false documents to the enemy commander in <Alias=EnemyCapital>" -> "I have successfully intercepted the <Alias=Courier>and turned in false documents to the enemy commander in <Alias=EnemyCapital>" (Bug #24326) JailQuest: "Retrieve your posessions" -> "Retrieve your possessions" (Bug #24456) DialogueWhiterun [0002BDE3]: "Be glad you're here in the city, and not out in Riverwood. Those poor sods don't even have a wall. -> "Be glad you're here in the city and not out in Riverwood. Those poor sods don't even have a wall." (Bug #24458) MS05GiraurdPoeticEddaDescription2: "If I'm right Svaknir and King Olaf's Verse lie in Dead Men's Respite, along with the burial chamber of King Olaf himself." -> "If I'm right, Svaknir and King Olaf's Verse lie in Dead Men's Respite, along with the burial chamber of King Olaf himself." (Bug #24604) DialogueWindhelmLonelyGaleTopicsActivitiyTopic: "If you're need of goods, there's a market." -> "If you're in need of goods, there's a market." (Bug #24607)
If USSEP focused on game-breaking bugs, bugs that stopped quests from proceeding, clear visual glitches, and the like, then it would be perfect.
The USSEP, like any other mod, is owned by and the result of the hard work of the USSEP team. Who are you to demand that they make their mod to your specifications that they don't agree with? Who are you to dictate what bugs the USSEP team is and isn't allowed to fix? Here's another thing: the USSEP team does not have a monopoly on fixing bugs. If you or anyone are so opposed to the fixes, you are more than welcome to create your own bugfix compilation to whatever standard you want. Just remember though that it takes a lot of time and effort to earn a good reputation and the USSEP team has definitely earned theirs.
Also, speaking of standards, since everyone has their own, I have no doubt that anyone who tries to make their own "pure" bugfix mod will make a change that riles up some people. Then that compilation will have it's own fringe group making the same sort of demands that you are doing right now.
But throw in a dash of arrogance (and let's not deny that at least one key member of the team is fairly puffed up with this), and they are finding more "bugs" than I saw when I was detoxing from alcohol.
Let's see. That's the Ad Hominem (they are arrogant and puffed up), baseless assertion (no evidence submitted to support these assertions), Non Sequitur (where is the link between "they are arrogant" and "they don't fix bugs"), thinly veiled attacks on their mental states and possibly some more I can't think of right now.
In summary, your comment is just more of what I complained about in my previous post: USSEP team bashing and logical gymnastics.
Edit: Another thing is that you and others posting here have been consistently guilty of the No True Scotsman fallacy by claiming that exploits are not "real" bugs.
Even if it's meant to be like in vanilla or it is a bug, is pretty much semantics. The most important factor is if it makes sense. Considering how weak vanilla vampires are, necromage is the only reason to become one if not going for RP reason.
If you count it as a bug being a vampire has more weaknesses than strengths which doesn't make much sense. Of course if you're playing with a vampire overhaul then Necromage would just make you Overpowered.
Again, my issue has never been the existence of this mod or people using exploits. It is the entitlement of the people posting here, the USSEP team bashing and the logical gymnastics that people are engaging in to try "prove" that there is nothing wrong with Necromage. Also, this is about facts and has nothing to do with "semantics". I have presented evidence supporting my points (eg. dictionary definitions) whereas those making the arguments I mentioned above are not presenting evidence at all, presenting "evidence" that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and/or preaching their arbitrary opinions as if they are facts. You, in fact, are an example of the latter. Your belief that vampires are underpowered and "need" the Necromage exploit is nothing more than your arbitrary opinion, not a fact.
In MY opinion both iterpretations might be corret.
In one hand we have the fact that the word "against" usually means "opposite" (in a hostile manner, but not necessarily) and so supports the BUG theory. In the other hand we have the fact that the word "against" might be used as meaning "opposite" (BUT in a NON hostile manner, as proved in this commentary section), and at the same time the game mechanics kinda supports this NON hostile theory (whether is a bug, or not).
So both interpretations in MY opinion could be correct.
I think the real problem here is that the only thing that may serve as a guide for us is a simple sentece that it is kind of ambiguous.
Bethesda could have made this much more clear by changing the sentence to:
-All spells casted on undead are more effective
or
-All spells are more effective against undead enemies.
@BigHouse47 First, you aren't really presenting anything new but are really just rehashing arguments that have already been made and refuted. So, instead of reinventing the wheel, I'm just going to quote my previous posts when appropriate.
Next, I'm going to assume that English is not your first language either due to the spelling and grammar mistakes in your post. Thus, my advice to hacnsm applies to you as well:
Thus, my advice is that if you are not absolutely sure about what someone is saying, it is not a good idea to add your opinion to the discussion or disagree with them. All you're going to do is say things that are completely wrong and cause people to have to repeat themselves explaining something that has already been established.
In MY opinion both iterpretations might be corret.
This doesn't get you off the hook. This discussion is about facts, not opinions. If you are not 100% sure of what you are saying about factual topics, all this means is that you either need to do more research or keep it to yourself.
In one hand we have the fact that the word "against" usually means "opposite" (in a hostile manner, but not necessarily) and so supports the BUG theory. In the other hand we have the fact that the word "against" might be used as meaning "opposite" (BUT in a NON hostile manner, ...
This is not accurate in any way. Let me re-quote the actual definition of "against":
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/against Against (preposition) 1. in opposition to; contrary to; adverse or hostile to: twenty votes against ten; against reason. 2. in resistance to or defence from: protection against burglars. 3. in an opposite direction to: to ride against the wind.
As you can see, the word "opposite" doesn't appear anywhere in this definition. The word "opposition" does but that is where not fully understanding English can fail you. Despite looking similar, the word "opposition" is not synonymous with "opposite". The actual definition of it is:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/opposition opposition (noun) 1. the action of opposing, resisting, or combating. 2. antagonism or hostility. 3. a person or group of people opposing, criticizing, or protesting something, someone, or another group.
There is no basis for claiming that it can be used in a non-hostile manner.
Also, in your haste to become an acrobat, you have made a fatal mistake. Let's pretend, for a bit, that the word "against" does mean "opposite", as you claim, and replace "against" with "opposite" in the perk's description. We get:
All spells are more effective opposite undead.
In other words, this perk affects spells used on the opposite of undead. If this was true, it would reinforce my claim that the perk is definitely bugged because not only is it affecting undead when it shouldn't, it is not affecting non-undead when it should.
..., as proved in this commentary section),...
What proof? You failed to specify what exactly "proves" that this exploit is not an exploit. Are you referring to the number of people voting that way? If so, that is an Argumentum Ad Populum and, hence, illogical. Or maybe you are referring to something someone said that has already been refuted.
Furthermore, there is this statement I made previously, which neither you nor anyone else has refuted:
..., abilities, perks, enchantments, poisons, potions, etc. In fact, most of those things aren't even spells and yet unpatched Necromage affects them. There is no basis for arguing that Necromage should affect any of these situations, even if this was the correct definition of against in this context (which it isn't). Furthermore, if vanilla Necromage is the intended behaviour, there is no reason why it should only affect the above after they are applied to the player and not retroactively boosted upon getting Necromage.
So let's hear it. If Necromage is working as intended, why is it affecting all of these things that are not spells?
...and at the same time the game mechanics kinda supports this NON hostile theory (whether is a bug, or not).
That logical fallacy is Begging the Question. Are we to believe that we "know" Necromage is intended to affect friendly undead because that is it's vanilla behaviour? Are we to completely ignore all the evidence that has been presented demonstrating that this is not the intended behaviour?
I think the real problem here is that the only thing that may serve as a guide for us is a simple sentece that it is kind of ambiguous.
Bethesda could have made this much more clear by changing the sentence to:
-All spells casted on undead are more effective
or
-All spells are more effective against undead enemies.
And the belief that Necromage is working as intended is based on .... what exactly? It's pretty silly to say that the "Necromage is bugged" side is based on just a sentence when the "Necromage is fine" side doesn't even have that to support their reasoning. In fact, this is the fallacy of the Double Standard as well as a form of Moving the Goalposts.
Finally, your claim that the sentence is ambiguous is wrong. As I have repeatedly demonstrated, the sentence's meaning is perfectly clear. Ambiguity only exists in the minds of people who so desperately want this exploit to be part of the game.
...man you're so focused on being right that you didn't even understand what @ShibePatrol was trying to say in his post...
"I'll admit that I want this because I want to exploit it. This is a singleplayer game. There is no honor in increasing its difficulty or playing it in a completely broken way. If part of the fun of gameplay is using these exploits, then great. If you want to add a mod that increases difficulty or even results in perma-death, there are mods for this too."
he's not contradicting himself at all, he's just saying it's okay to play the game the way you like since it's singleplayer... and especially he isn't dictating anyone how to play this game, he's doing the opposite. by the effort you put in this argument and the way you responded, especially belitteling people for grammar mistakes, you just made yourself look really arrogant. yes you're right it's an exploit and yes it's rightfully patched out but man... don't take this so personally you don't have to prove anything, if they don't believe you after you presented them the facts it's not going to lead anywhere.
also only because someone isn't perfectly fluent in a foreign language it doesn't mean he/she is automatically incapable of understanding you. if you're only "advising" someone to lowkey insult them you should keep it to yourself since advice paired with insults isn't going to help anyone. (kind of ironic I know)
come down from your high horse and double check before you jump on every single sentence someone is saying next time
In the code it was done to target undead and is described as it. So the fix is wrong because is based on description of the perk in game and not in the code description. In case of doubt code description is always right, in game descriptions are adapted to look better, fit in places... and they contain a lot more errors, than code descriptions that are normally 100% corrects. Since the perk states that affects undead the only way is a bug is if the developers don't knew the player as a vampire have an undead tag... and they knew it (so the buff is a reward for being a vampire). Is like the loop of crafting the developers knew it and is there so with a cap of +/- 3 times (reward for put traits in all 3), in fact they buff it with Dragonborn DLC and people still call it an exploit is just the "meta game", something is always more op.
PS: i don't even play as a vampire and i use vokrii that fixes the unofficial fix of necromage perk.
All spells are more effective against Undead. Can be used in positive or negative way like "heal AGAINST Target" or "saving AGAINST your Will". When someone heals you without asking its a hostile action first but on the second thought welcome. Logical or not as long Bethesda dont say its a bug or not, there is not right or wrong. Skyrim exist since 2011 with original Patches + Special Edition 2016 with original Patches and still it existed. You cant say Bethesda was never aware of this "bug" because there are plenty guides and builds around it. Blood on the Ice was/is a bug because they tried to fix it. As long as Bethesda dont say its a bug/exploit it remains to be a feature.
Actually the reason why Necromage has so overpowered is how game engine works with spell effects. Stuff like shrine blessings, standing stones, Agent of Mara, Racial bonuses consider player as the one who casted it (I remember that in Oblivion shrine blessings are actual self-cast spells that can be gained via cheats). As result, they are affected by Necromage.
It still blows my mind why as a vampire you can still get blessings from the nine divine shrines. Also, you can still get Azura's blessing even after you betrayed her and got the Black Star. The people at USSEP patched it for balance reasons and i respect that. This mod is here as an option, take it or ignore it is as simple as that.
i don't know why i can't "against" myself? Necromage should't work on enchanted gear, i am agree with you in this view. But the spell character cast,should work on himself,why should't i take more armor from my spell or more time to mufle.
XJDHDR Aspect of Terror has already proven that the USSEP team is not all right in the head. It's been 10 years since the game was released, and Scaled Armor, Hide Armor and Studded Armor have not been fixed in the leg area, legs sticking out through the armor texture. Karl, it's been 10 years! Against and directed are words with the same meaning and I see no reason to kill game mechanics. Targeting the undead means targeting any object that is undead, including the protagonist! Can you aim the weapon at yourself? The Necromage is initially correct, and your dull delirium is disgusting, especially your repetitions of what you already stated earlier. Sounds like a slogan mania, but not dialogue. Comparing the broken Blood in the Snow quest to the perk mechanic is the greatest folly! The scripts are broken in the quest. Enchantments on armor and weapons are the same spells that have acquired a vessel in the form of armor or weapons!
This is the most retarded thread I've ever read. It doesn't matter if it's a bug or not, if you dislike changing it you have the right to change it back in your own damn game.
i mean i wont try and claim that its not a bug, but lets be honest necro vampirism is the only way to make vampires even slightly viable over werewolves. and nobody really plays skyrim to be challenged, if you want a challenege in skyrim go download some mods that make it a hellish nightmare. The fun in skyrim (at least for me) is setting it to legendary difficulty cowering behind followers and quicksaving every 5 seconds for the first hours of the game, and then slowly building up my power until i can decimate even the toughest of foes without breaking a sweat, necromage helps with that :) why argue about necromages validity? its not like its being removed as a fix from USEEP. I think the fact bethesda didnt fix it themselves when they fixed many other bugs and glitches like the oghma exploit. I think the fact they kept it in means it was either a choice or they simply didnt think it was worth the itme fixing, either way its a fairly harmless exploit to gain some extra power, i'll happily use it but i wont go near resto enchant loop and stuff because i find the necromage buff is a nice little bonus just to give some oomf to the vampire, and its not like vampirism comes without weakness... i miss the sun :(
i think this is half true, im not sure they meant for it to be affected the way it is ingame, i think its certainl;y bugged in some fashion as some of the things it affects does seem kind of odd but i do think it was certainly intended to some degree, like enchantments and alike make sense as they are targetting you.
your mistake here is believing its one way or the other. Only a sith deals in absolutes. Have you considered that perhaps its supposed to work on all spells cast upon you (healing, enchantments etc etc) but is BUGGED and thus includes all cast spells? saying that "well this one thing is bugged therefore the whole thing must be a bug" is rediculous logic that would probably lead to the entire game being considered a bug.
And where is your proof that I posted this stuff because I'm "so focused on being right"?
he's not contradicting himself at all, he's just saying it's okay to play the game the way you like since it's singleplayer ... and especially he isn't dictating anyone how to play this game, he's doing the opposite.
ShibePatrol's own words contradict your claim. I don't see an explanation for how "There is no honor in increasing its difficulty or playing it in a completely broken way." is anything other than telling people how to play the game. He is literally saying that you have no honour if you increase the difficulty or play in broken ways.
Nor have you explained how someone simultaneously saying that exploits are great and that "There is no honor in ... playing it in a completely broken way" (which is what exploits are) is not a contradiction. In fact, you seem to have completely sidestepped this one.
Not to mention that interpreting his post as "it's wrong to tell others how to play the game" only makes sense if people were doing that. This is not the case. To quote the very first paragraph of my 2nd post:
Why don't you just admit that you want this exploit to remain unpatched because you want to take advantage of it to make your vampire character more powerful than they would be without it. I'm not going to think any less of you if you simply tell the truth and I'm sure at least most of the people refuting your arguments won't either. Entirely different story for people who think that they deserve access to this exploit or that the expert modders behind the Unofficial Skyrim Patch secretly have no idea what they are doing simply because they patched it out.
To quote dAb:
Enjoying the exploit is fine, not admitting that it's indeed an exploit is not.
Perhaps you are the one who actually didn't understand.
by the effort you put in this argument ... you just made yourself look really arrogant
So hordes of people repeatedly parroting the same provably wrong justifications and mental gymnastics to make themselves feel better about exploiting their game (by convincing themselves that it's not an exploit) is perfectly humble? Whereas repeatedly refuting those explanations is arrogant?
don't take this so personally you don't have to prove anything, if they don't believe you after you presented them the facts it's not going to lead anywhere.
It's the people I'm replying to who you should be sharing this advice with.
also only because someone isn't perfectly fluent in a foreign language it doesn't mean he/she is automatically incapable of understanding you.
Straw Man fallacy. That is not even remotely close to summarising my reply. Where is your explanation for how advising someone to be extra sure they've understood someone (which really is advice that everyone should follow, not just those who aren't fluent), equates to saying that someone automatically doesn't understand me unless they are fluent in English?
if you're only "advising" someone to lowkey insult them
Still no proof to back your claim that I'm insulting people. Furthermore, if you truly think I'm insulting people, why are you complaining about it in a reply? The report button is right there in the top-right corner.
Also, Double Standard fallacy. Why are you complaining about me supposedly "lowkey insulting" people while remaining silent about all the exploit revisionists here who are openly insulting the USKP team and anyone who dares to disagree with them (including ShibePatrol)?
come down from your high horse
Loaded Question fallacy. You can't encourage me to get off a high horse until you've proven that I'm on one in the first place.
@MFranco Almost everything you wrote is just a blatant Begging the Question fallacy. The perk's coding is working as intended because the code is working as intended? Nowhere did you actually engage the points we have made showing that the code is not working as intended.
the only way is a bug is if the developers don't knew the player as a vampire have an undead tag... and they knew it
Special Pleading fallacy. Do you not realise that this reasoning invalidates every single fix the USKP has ever made? By that same logic, the only way any of the bugs that exist in Skyrim exist is because Bethesda knew about all of them and approved of every single one of them.
Can be used in positive or negative way like "heal AGAINST Target" or "saving AGAINST your Will". When someone heals you without asking its a hostile action first but on the second thought welcome.
Let me try follow your chain of reasoning. So Necromage is intended to buff healing spells you cast on yourself because you don't actually want to be healed in the first place? So why did you cast a healing spell at all then? Likewise, Necromage is intended to buff perks because you didn't actually want the perk? Then, again, why did you pick the perk at all?
Logical or not as long Bethesda dont say its a bug or not, there is not right or wrong.
We've already presented proof that it IS a bug. Hand-waving that evidence is not going to make it go away.
Skyrim exist since 2011 with original Patches + Special Edition 2016 with original Patches and still it existed.
Special Pleading fallacy. Do you not realise that this reasoning invalidates every single fix the USKP has ever made? By that same logic, almost every single thing fixed by the USKP has existed "since 2011 with original Patches + Special Edition 2016 with original Patches and still it existed". Therefore, they are not actually bugs.
You cant say Bethesda was never aware of this "bug" because there are plenty guides and builds around it.
Likewise, you can't say that Bethesda was never aware of those bugs because they are right there in the USKP's data and changelogs. Also, No True Scotsman fallacy for the reasons I've already previously given.
Blood on the Ice was/is a bug because they tried to fix it.
That is called Lawyering. Why not actually engage the point I was making there instead of trying to divert by picking at the specific example I used.
And even your attempt at lawyering doesn't work because you've committed a Composition and/or Division Fallacy. They did not try to fix that specific bug I pointed out. So all you've done is further invalidate your own argument. By your logic, that Bethesda fixed other bugs in Blood on the Ice and yet, left the bug I mentioned intact further proves that they are aware of it and even further proves that they approve of it. And on top of that, Blood on the Ice is far from the only example in the game I can use. There are plenty of examples of well known bugs with easy fixes which Bethesda made no even remote attempt to fix them.
As long as Bethesda dont say its a bug/exploit it remains to be a feature.
That's just a blatant Argument from Silence fallacy. We don't need Bethesda's divine endorsement to prove that this is a bug. We have already presented evidence proving as much and hand-waving that data is not going to make it go away. Furthermore, I can use the same "logic": As long as Bethesda doesn't say it's not a bug/exploit, it remains a bug/exploit.
@Sakura7Ishin You made absolutely zero effort to prove any of the claims you made there. Instead, you just expect everyone to take your word for it. Not good enough. Present proof. Especially considering this blatant contradiction between your assertions and reality:
How can he cut off the 4th definitely of " against ", just because it doesn't suit his assertion.
However, you left one definition out from dictionary.com:
4. into contact or collision with; toward; upon: The rain beat against the window.
I did no such thing. When I quoted those definitions, that fourth one wasn't there so it's a recent addition. Ultimately though, it's irrelevant. That definition doesn't apply because:
Or in Skyrim context: Casting Equilibrium, the increased power of the Vampire-Mage's spell railed against and swelled upon him, simultaneously draining his health while restoring his magicka.
This makes zero sense. When you cast a spell on yourself, it doesn't lose contact with you for a while then come into contact with you again. Nor does it fly off in some direction, make a U-turn then forcefully collide with your character. The only time spells collide with anything is when someone casts a targeted (not touch) spell at a different target. Self-cast spells are not colliding with anything. Neither are touch spells, abilities, perks, enchantments, poisons, potions, etc. In fact, most of those things aren't even spells and yet unpatched Necromage affects them. There is no basis for arguing that Necromage should affect any of these situations, even if this was the correct definition of against in this context (which it isn't). Furthermore, if vanilla Necromage is the intended behaviour, there is no reason why it should only affect the above after they are applied to the player and not retroactively boosted upon getting Necromage.
When a word has multiple definitions, the proper interpretation method is to take the most straightforward interpretation, not the one that best aligns with your interests (i.e. Confirmation Bias).
So tell me: Did you not bother to read what I actually said before claiming that I didn't say this or are you deliberately lying through your teeth?
On top of that, the moment someone resorts to Ad Hominem attacks is the moment you know that they don't have a case. The fact that your reply is riddled with mockery and laughing at me shows that you are not in a position to judge who is and isn't dirty until you clean your own filth.
@sxh900 You're not saying anything that hasn't already been answered. To repeat what we have been saying from the start: No one is going to judge you if you just acknowledge that you want to use this exploit. However, pretending that this is not an exploit, engaging in mental gymnastics and kicking basic logic to the curb to justify this stance, is not okay.
Aspect of Terror has already proven that the USSEP team is not all right in the head.
A claim you made no effort to prove. There is absolutely zero justification for classifying Aspect of Terror as anything but an exploit. There is absolutely no reason why a perk which clearly states that it makes fear spells work on higher level enemies would also make fire magic do more damage. And don't try that "Intense Flames makes fire spells cause a fear effect" argument: This would only justify boosting the fear component of the fire spell, not the fire component. The bug which causes the latter is what the USSEP team fixed and so, your "proof" is a Non Sequitur.
And to repeat myself, yet again: No one here is going to judge you if you just acknowledge that you want to use these exploits. However, pretending that they are not exploits, engaging in mental gymnastics and kicking basic logic to the curb to justify this stance, is not okay.
And your massively off-topic remark about a completely unrelated bug (legs clipping through armour) is exactly that.
Against and directed are words with the same meaning
Are you sure about that?
against: preposition 1. in opposition to; contrary to; adverse or hostile to: twenty votes against ten; against reason. 2. in resistance to or defense from: protection against burglars. 3. in an opposite direction to: to ride against the wind.
directed: adjective 1. guided, regulated, or managed: a carefully directed program. 2. subject to direction, guidance, regulation, etc. 3 .pointed, aimed, or sent toward a place or object: Rooms need to have high air exchange rates, rapid air velocities, and directed airflows to minimize particle concentration.
Please explain how these two words have the same meaning.
Targeting the undead means targeting any object that is undead, including the protagonist!
Except the perk's description doesn't say "targeting", it says "against".
Can you aim the weapon at yourself?
Non Sequitur fallacy. Healing spells, clothing enchantments, etc. are not weapons.
The Necromage is initially correct,
As has already been proven ad nauseum, not even close.
your dull delirium is disgusting
So, another guy who thinks that mocking someone by making unproven claims about their mental state is rational or acceptable?
Besides that thinly veiled attack, it is the facts that matter here, not your personal feelings. Leave your emotions at the door. In fact, when you have to use your feelings to justify your stance, it's a good indication that you should take a step back and re-think why exactly you have adopted that stance. And to reconsider the stance you're opposing: Do you have any facts to back your opposition or is it just feelings?
Besides, I can play that game as well. What if I say that everyone's mental gymnastics and fact-free assertions are disgusting? How would you answer that without undermining your own statement?
especially your repetitions of what you already stated earlier.
Double Standard fallacy. Why do you not have a problem with all the exploit revisionists here who keep parroting the same things over and over again without engaging what has already been said? Why is it my repeatedly pointing out to these people what has already been said that you have a problem with? I suspect that it is because they are all on your side, so why would you undermine them.
Sounds like a slogan mania, but not dialogue.
Double Standard and Cherry Picking fallacies. Ignoring the attack on my mental state again, why is it not all the exploit revisionists who keep repeating the same slogans who you have a problem with, other than them being on your side? This is beginning to look like projection on your part.
Comparing the broken Blood in the Snow quest to the perk mechanic is the greatest folly! The scripts are broken in the quest.
Scripts are broken? You mean like how the conditions attached to the perk which governs which objects are affected by it are broken?
Enchantments on armor and weapons are the same spells that have acquired a vessel in the form of armor or weapons!
Don't even try. The game clearly distinguishes enchantments from spells. If they are the same thing, why can't soul gems be used to power spells? Why do we have a separate enchanting skill instead of enchanting being part of the spell skills? Why can a master enchanter be useless at casting spells or vice versa? Why don't any of the enchanting perks affect spells? Why does the Creation Kit have enchantments and spells in separate subtrees from each other?
I suspect that you can't answer any of these because your post was fuelled by Confirmation Bias. You've already concluded that the perk is working as it should and are interpreting the facts to fit this conclusion.
Furthermore, you find it disgusting that I keep repeating myself. This right here shows why I have to keep doing it: You people don't listen. The whole "enchantments are a type of spell" has already been brought up and dealt with previously and yet, here you are simply parroting it again. You claim that I'm not interested in dialogue and yet, a crucial part of dialogue is listening to what has already been said. Again, this is looking like projection on your part. In future, read, think about and engage what has already been said. Or don't, but then don't be surprised if my reply is to just repeat what I've already said.
if you dislike changing it you have the right to change it back in your own damn game.
Please read what we've actually said instead of putting words in our mouths. No one here is complaining about people using exploits or putting exploits back into their own game.
Well, thank you for being one of the few people here using this mod who is willing to admit that the perk is bugged. With that said, though:
why argue about necromages validity? its not like its being removed as a fix from USEEP.
No one here is complaining about a USSEP fix being undone. Please re-read what we have actually said. Can everyone please stop putting words in our mouths?
either way its a fairly harmless exploit
Likewise, no one here is claiming that this exploit is harmful or complaining about people using it in the first place.
I think the fact bethesda didnt fix it themselves when they fixed many other bugs and glitches like the oghma exploit. I think the fact they kept it in means it was either a choice or they simply didnt think it was worth the itme fixing
Okay, I don't understand. You acknowledged that the perk is bugged and now you have gone on to simply repeat the exact same claims that have already been made by people claiming that the perk is not bugged.
As has already been said, this logic invalidates every single fix the USSEP has made. You could point to any one of them and say that it hasn't been fixed to date because Bethesda chose to keep it in or because they didn't think it was worth it. This means that the various bugs in Blood on the Ice (some game breaking) were intentional. Of course, all of this is just a False Dilemma fallacy.
like enchantments and alike make sense as they are targetting you.
As has already been said, the perk's description doesn't say "targeting", it says "against". So no, enchantments and the like don't make sense because they are not "in opposition to you". Not to mention that enchantments are not spells in the first place.
your mistake here is believing its one way or the other. Only a sith deals in absolutes.
1. This is real life, not Star Wars. 2. Just because Obi-Wan said something doesn't automatically make it so. 3. That's a very problematic claim. If I point at a blue wall and say, "This is blue," am I now a Sith because I'm dealing in absolutes? Is it only a Sith who would say that this website is Nexus Mods (an absolute)?
Have you considered that perhaps its supposed to work on all spells cast upon you (healing, enchantments etc etc) but is BUGGED and thus includes all cast spells?
We're all just going off what the perk's description says. We've concluded that it's bugged because the effects it has do not line up with what the description says. If you have any proof whatsoever showing that the description is what was incorrectly coded, we would love to hear it.
Jesus, this whole debacle has been going on for like 5 years with one of y'all being involved for 4... All over a perk in a video game lol I'm not trying to disrespect people, I'm just kind of baffled at how Necromage is supposed to work can create this much discourse...
haha, I was about make some popcorn. This threat is entertaining as hell. I know I'm not adding anything to the convo but I don't think this perk should affect enchanting and alchemy, only spells.
The Necromage bug lies in YOUR profession abuse. With class leveling, all these advantages are minimal and are compensated by a debuff! For example, I swing the Nord berserker, for this I pour into Two-handed, Light armor, Block to reflexes, Blacksmithing up to 50-80 to choose from, in order to definitely take the Blacksmith-wizard for the Skin of the Savior and the boots of the Predator, and 80 at will, so that Improve the skin as much as possible, then eloquence closes the swing, which is what? That's right, which will make it possible to trade and buy banks for health / stamina, for protection and for increasing Blacksmithing, as a result, the damage will not exceed 200-250 from a two-handed with a pitiful ring that strengthens the two-handed by 25-30%, and this is at character level 28. A lot at the Legendary level? I don’t think so and the extra 25% of the vampire + Necromage form will not play a big role, but it will still give a pleasant sense of the role. In the end, a vampire is a lore being somewhat stronger than a person, here they are 25% of the power!There is no point in pumping Bers further, he gets his cap, auto leveling turned out to be smarter than you! He does not need other constellations at all and only drives the enemies into the rocking chair. And this is the story with all classes, they all have caps and predispositions - pronounced advantages on which they receive the maximum efficiency in relation to the level and it is not more than 40. If you were not overwhelmed by greed, you could understand this yourself. Not everyone plays like you crazy hamsters. Your damage with the abuse = 1500 and higher! Play Call of Dyuti, RPG is not for you, since you cannot complete the game honestly, because this is how you play and it is because of you that the game was turned into a middle gender - neither fish nor meat.
here's the thing though. augment fire/frost and shock increase your spells damage however they also increase enchants, thus since necromage says similar for all spells then it should work for Armor in the same way, simple as that
this thread is stupid. ussep says it should be patched, bethesda's pov is that benign bugs shouldn't be patched, the description implies it's not to be used on yourself, can everybody just walk away with their own opinions instead of fighting over one of the smallest things in the world? jesus christ, if you dont want to download the mod then don't download it. nobody asked you to use it. get over it.
If this thread's stupid why'd you upped it ? Now it's gonna be in everyone's face again, I bet some people are even gonna want to reply, even though it won't serve any constructive purpose and will end up as one more pointless, circular argument about the USSEP. Please, if you read this, I am begging you, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD, anything that you have to say on the matter has probably already been said a thousand times, and it won't be of any help to the users of this mod. Let's all just ignore this thread, starting now.
I couldn't get this to work for the longest time. Seems like I tried everything possible, but nothing was working. Finally figured out that if it was not included in the smashed/bashed patch it worked. If it was included then it didn't work. Hope this helps some people.
Still not working? According to dempseyaidan "If you're having this problem, transform into Vampire Lord form and then revert form. Unless you took the necromage perk before becoming a vampire, the effects like weakness to fire and resistance to ice will not be affected, but enchantments, perks, and standing stones are."
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"All spells are more effective *against* undead." It's clearly in reference to opponents, not you.
PS how about Bethesda's 'all rocks cast shadows except those with Multilayer Parallax and mountains'... really confusing isn't it? USSEP 'fixes' that as well but I'm not sure if there isn't a catch, like 20 fps drops
PS I will try experimenting on Cast_Shadows flag in my hi poly glacier stuff. I wonder is Bethesda knew better, as decent fps drops are expected unless you have gtx980ti or higher
The USLEEP fix is correct.
Your convoluted attempts to justify the vanilla mistake are simply to justify more power to your vampire build to make this easy game less challenging than it already is.
"All SPELLS are more effective AGAINST undead". Meaning that *spells* [not enchantments] that the player casts on *other* undead are more effective [by 25%].
The perk is missing the player condition, it's simple as that.
B) An enchantment is a spell that is woven into the material of the armor/weapon.
Just sayin.
B) So what? Technically, poisons are spells as well and there's no logical reason why they should be affected either.
I'd bet everything I have that if the bug had a negative effect on your game you'd be all screaming FIX IT at the USSEP team. Enjoying the exploit is fine, not admitting that it's indeed an exploit is not.
And yes, this is definitely an exploit:
Also:
In addition to dAb's comment, what exactly is this supposed to prove? How do you know that the description for this particular perk is bugged? Do you have any evidence supporting this claim (an Association Fallacy is not evidence) or is your argument actually fuelled by what I've said above?
This is a Non-sequitur. It does not follow that, because NPC vampires are affected by Necromage, that PC vampires should likewise be affected, especially when the perk's description doesn't allow for this. Is your attempt to justify the existence of this exploit being fuelled by what I've said above?
When he referred to the description being "bugged", he meant that its wording is ambiguous, or in opposition to what it actually does (or in this case, what it is supposed to do).
If you can push your hands together, you are exerting a force against yourself, so casting a spell on yourself doesn't seem all that odd.
If you were to take the description at face value, spells being more effective on you, an undead creature, makes perfect sense. This isn't the intended interaction, but there it is because they forgot to specify otherwise on both the description and the actual effect.
First, I'm going to assume that English is not your first language. I'm doing so because you said a lot of strange things (eg. that there is nothing odd about casting spells on yourself, even though this is a core game mechanic in just about every game that has a magic or magic-like system and so there is no reason why it would be odd to begin with. And I never argued that casting spells on yourself was strange). Thus, my advice is that if you are not absolutely sure about what someone is saying, it is not a good idea to add your opinion to the discussion or disagree with them. All you're going to do is say things that are completely wrong and cause people to have to repeat themselves explaining something that has already been established.
Next, the foundation of your argument appears to be your claim that the perk's description allows for the perk to affect self-cast spells. Let's look at what the perk's description actually says:
The key word here is "against". Let's look at the definition of "against":
In short, the USSEP fix is correct. This perk's description clearly indicates that it is supposed to only affect spells that are cast in opposition to or with hostility to a target (i.e. enemy actors). This is the part that those who want the exploit have failed to explain; how does wearing an enchanted item or casting a shield or healing spell on yourself qualify as casting the spell "in opposition to" or "with hostility to" yourself? I suspect that they haven't tried to explain because there is no rational explanation.
What do you mean "probably"? It IS an exploit. I quoted a dictionary definition which the situation with this perk perfectly lines up with. The only way you could argue that this isn't an exploit is by arguing that the dictionary definition is wrong. If you want to pursue thus line of reasoning, you are going to have to present evidence.
You have committed a number of fallacies with this statement. There is the straw-man argument for falsely claiming that I am using logic to prove people wrong (I pointed out the fallacies to demonstrate that they didn't prove anything, not that they were wrong), falsely claiming that I am blindly throwing out logical fallacies without care as to whether they apply to the situation (which you made no effort to prove), falsely claiming that I am using only logic and nothing more to prove people wrong (hint: when someone quotes a dictionary, it's not a good idea to claim that they have no evidence, in addition to the above) and falsely claiming that I am a logic newbie (I "graduated" from that "class" a long time ago). There is also the ad-hominem for attempting to demonstrate that I am wrong by criticizing my use of logic instead of demonstrating that what I have said is wrong.
And that last bit is complete nonsense. Logical fallacies are never justifiable, especially when something is clearly correct. If something is clearly correct, you don't need fallacies to prop it up; evidence can support the claim all by itself.
Let's compare what you claim UrizenDe said with what he actually said. UrizenDe said that the description is bugged in response to dAb saying:
UrizenDe is not arguing that the description is ambiguous, he is arguing that it is wrong: That Bethesda's intent was for the perk to say something like "...more effective ON undead" rather than against.
Again, casting beneficial spells on yourself does not qualify as "in opposition to" yourself and so there is no rational reason why the perk should affect them, even taking into account that pushing your hands against each other (an unrelated action) means that each hand is in opposition to the force the other hand applies.
Considering my explanation above about how the word "against" in the perk's description demolishes this part of your argument and how others such as dAb, sirjesto and the USSEP team all came to the same conclusion; I would love to see you explain how the perk affecting the PC makes perfect sense or how the perk's description doesn't exclude beneficial spells from it's effect.
The key word here is "against". Let's look at the definition of "against":
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/against
Against (preposition)
1. in opposition to; contrary to; adverse or hostile to: twenty votes against ten; against reason.
2. in resistance to or defence from: protection against burglars.
3. in an opposite direction to: to ride against the wind.
Equilibrium cast on self, Necromantic Healing cast on undead, etc. etc.. Word salad arguments are fun.
However, you left one definition out from dictionary.com:
4. into contact or collision with; toward; upon: The rain beat against the window.
Or in Skyrim context:
Casting Equilibrium, the increased power of the Vampire-Mage's spell railed against and swelled upon him, simultaneously draining his health while restoring his magicka.
I would argue the demolishing effects of your explanation of "against" in the perk's description have been lessened. Regardless, given the poor game design (i.e., alchemy, smithing and enchanting builds) of Bethesda, it's nice both sides have options in this debate; use the USSEP patch as is or use it with the reverted Necromage perk patch.
Your point being what exactly? The argument I and others made is that Necromage is bugged. How does noting it's effects on various spells refute this?
Is this an admission that "you want this exploit to remain unpatched because you want to take advantage of it to make your vampire character more powerful than they would be without it?" That you are trying to wring out an interpretation that fits your preconceived notions instead of accepting the straightforward interpretation? Also, you have committed the Ad Hominem fallacy. My posts are not the ramblings of someone with a mental disorder.
I did no such thing. When I quoted those definitions, that fourth one wasn't there so it's a recent addition. Ultimately though, it's irrelevant. That definition doesn't apply because:
This makes zero sense. When you cast a spell on yourself, it doesn't lose contact with you for a while then come into contact with you again. Nor does it fly off in some direction, make a U-turn then forcefully collide with your character. The only time spells collide with anything is when someone casts a targeted (not touch) spell at a different target. Self-cast spells are not colliding with anything. Neither are touch spells, abilities, perks, enchantments, poisons, potions, etc. In fact, most of those things aren't even spells and yet unpatched Necromage affects them. There is no basis for arguing that Necromage should affect any of these situations, even if this was the correct definition of against in this context (which it isn't). Furthermore, if vanilla Necromage is the intended behaviour, there is no reason why it should only affect the above after they are applied to the player and not retroactively boosted upon getting Necromage.
When a word has multiple definitions, the proper interpretation method is to take the most straightforward interpretation, not the one that best aligns with your interests (i.e. Confirmation Bias).
You're entitled to your opinion but that doesn't make it true.
That the game design is bad is another opinion, not a fact. Also, this fallacy is a Straw Man Argument. This is what I have said previously:
My issue has never been the existence of this mod. It is the entitlement of the people posting here, the USSEP team bashing and the logical gymnastics that people are engaging in to try "prove" that there is nothing wrong with Necromage; the USSEP team is just secretly plotting to ruin Skyrim for everyone.
The problem is, much of what the USSEP team "fixes" are not true bugs. There is far too much editorializing. If USSEP focused on game-breaking bugs, bugs that stopped quests from proceeding, clear visual glitches, and the like, then it would be perfect. But throw in a dash of arrogance (and let's not deny that at least one key member of the team is fairly puffed up with this), and they are finding more "bugs" than I saw when I was detoxing from alcohol.
You're contradicting yourself here. You are saying that it is fine to make your game more difficult while simultaneously arguing that there is no honour in doing so. So which is it? Also, on what basis are you dictating how other people should play the game?
You're also contradicting yourself here. Playing the game in a completely broken way is exactly what an exploit is so there is both no honour in using exploits and it's also perfectly okay to do so. So which is it?
Where is your evidence for any of these assertions? What proof do you have that most of the USSEP fixes are not bugs? Nothing more than perusing the changelog would quickly show how wrong this claim is. Actually, I'll make things easier. Here is the list of changes for version 4.1.4. Please demonstrate how most of these changes have nothing to do with fixing bugs. Oh, and make sure you use an objective definition of a bug and not one that is just your opinion:
Threki the Innocent should not be capable of sending thugs to attack the player for stealing stuff in the Riften jail. (Bug #23050)
The reference to the dragon at Mount Anthor had an incorrect override on the DragonActorScript that may have blocked various properties and thus caused it to not reset properly once killed for the first time. No other dragon seems to have this sort of override present. (Bug #21951) [NR]
Two guards outside of Understone Keep had overlapping AI which resulted in them both trying to occupy the same post for 2 hours. (Bug #24785)
Item Fixes
Bound daggers should now be properly transparent when summoned. (meshes\ussep\weapons\boundweapons\bounddagger.nif) (Bug #22357)
The empty satchel (TreasSatchelEMPTY) added by Hearthfire and used in Vlindrel Hall when the children's bedroom is purchased was mistakenly flagged to respawn. Storing items inside of it could result in them being lost as a result. (Bug #24478)
Location Fixes
Navmesh in cell -22,6 was missing some border crossings which caused NPCs in the area to leave the road when traveling through. (Bug #24721)
Navmesh in cell FortSungardCourtyard was missing border crossings on its west side. (Bug #24627)
Magic, Perk & Skill Fixes
The crReduceDamage035 perk introduced by Dawnguard suffers the same bug as the two vanilla perks for the same purpose. Instead of reducing damage incoming to the NPC using it, it was increasing their attack damage instead. (Bug #24764)
The 3 new rune spells added by the Dragonborn DLC were set to use the wrong decal for their effects. (DLC2RuneAshProjectile, DLC2RuneFrenzyProjectile, DLC2RunePoisonProjectile) (Bug #24403)
The Silent Moons enchantment has unnecessary effects attached after the earlier USKP fix to correct the magic effect times. (dunSilentMoonsEnchWeapon01, dunSilentMoonsEnchWeapon02, dunSilentMoonsEnchWeapon03) (Bug #24401)
The Staff of Magnus effect does not function correctly due to improper handling of the absorption effects it comes with. (Bug #24359)
Wisp's Kiss is using the wrong speed multiplier value when affecting the player. It should be 50 instead of 5, which matches up with the way all other slowdown effects work. (Bug #24404)
Mora's Agony, Tentacle Damage, and Poison Rune were not properly flagged with poison resistance to counter them as they should have been. (Bug #24402)
Mesh and Texture Fixes
Interior Whiterun wall piece with a layer separated away from its background. (meshes\architecture\whiterun\wrinteriors\wrintwallststr01.nif) (Bug #24499)
Quest Fixes
Truth Ore Consequences (FreeformRiften17) incorrectly sets disposition for Filnjar instead of Hafjorg when it ends. (Bug #24400)
Whiterun guards stationed at the Western Watchtower should not be delivering the line about Riverwood not having a wall since it refers to the city walls in Whiterun itself. (Bug #24331)
During Discerning the Transmundane (DA04) if the player does not take the Elder Scroll and eventually goes on to end the quest without doing so, it becomes impossible to take the scroll due to the activator being set for an alias in DA04 itself. The activator should instead be set to use the alias in MQ00 to get the scroll since MQ00 is a background quest that is never terminated during the life of the game. (Bug #22423)
The Affairs of Hagravens (dunBlindCliffQST) does not correctly terminate objectives when either of the hagravens are killed because both of them are checking for a prerequisite stage that requires you to open Melka's cage when this should only be checking to make sure Melka has tried to get the player's attention. (Bug #20117) [NR]
When speaking to Peryite's vision, it was possible for the player to appear stuck after tabbing out of dialogue. This was due to a script having a bad check on the heading angles when facing the fume pot. (Bug #24777)
Placement/Layout/Ownership and other World Object Fixes
0009F118, 0009F149: Misplaced dressers. (Bug #24314)
0009F121: Misplaced cupboard. (Bug #24314)
0009F124, 0009F125: Misplaced sacks. (Bug #24314)
0009F137, 0009F138: Floating rubble piles. (Bug #24314)
000B3B3C: Misplaced snow drift. (Bug #24315)
000F1C26: Wooden cooking spit moved that was clipping into another next to it. (Bug #24315)
04026763: Floating ash dune. (Bug #24315)
05089115, 05089116, 05089117, 05089118: Boulders placed to cover up overlapping cave pieces. (Bug #24315)
0005B154: Misplaced table. (Bug #24320)
000B8EA5: Misplaced hanging pelt. (Bug #24320)
000DC68B: Basket with an incorrect enable parent setting. (Bug #24334)
0009F0E8, 0009F0EA, 0009F0EB, 0009F0F2, 0009F0F3, 0009F0F4, 000AA351: Misplaced beds. (Bug #24364, Bug #24314)
000AA3BD: Misplaced bucket. (Bug #24364)
000ABBBB, 000ABBBC: Moved a clipping shelf and cupboard. Various items [Ref 000ABBE5, 000ABBE6, 000ABBE7, 000ABBE8, 000ABBF2, 000ABBF3, 000ABBF4] placed on them were adjusted as well. (Bug #24364)
000F27A4: Misplaced ruined book. (Bug #24364)
0004F077: Floating road chunk. (Bug #24395)
00100149: Adjusted floating floor pelt. (Bug #24439)
05000821: Dirt mound added to cover gap in cave floor. (Bug #24439)
05000822, 0500082C: Rocks added to cover gaps. (Bug #24466, Bug #24395)
0002C0A1, 0005419B, 0006E2C5, 000B45E1, 000E7DB4, 000E7DDD: Misplaced rock piles. (Bug #24494, Bug #24439, Bug #24395, Bug #24320)
0006EB72: Misplaced stone wall piece. (Bug #24552)
0508911B, 0508911C, 0508911D, 0508911E, 0508911F, 05089120: Rock piles placed to cover up gaps. (Bug #24602, Bug #24315)
000ABD80: Floating brewery cask. (Bug #24605)
000D4AAC: Floating hay scatter. (Bug #24605)
000D9D53: Misplaced wardrobe. (Bug #24605)
000FF74D, 000FF74E, 000FF74F, 000FF750, 000FF751, 000FF752, 000FF753, 000FF754, 000FF755, 000FF756, 000FF757, 000FF758: Misplaced crates. (Bug #24613)
0009B657: Floating rock. (Bug #24651)
000619B4, 00094A0D, 00099608: Misplaced rocks. (Bug #24752, Bug #24395)
0009F122, 0009F123, 000B45D5, 000B45D6, 000B45D7, 000B45D8, 000B45D9, 000B45DA, 000B45DB, 000B45DC, 000B45DD, 000B45DE, 000BEC63, 000E5E80, 000E5E81: Misplaced barrels. (Bug #24752, Bug #24613, Bug #24494, Bug #24314)
000DE9B5: Misplaced candelabra. (Bug #24752)
05089119, 0508911A: Road chunks added to cover a gap underneath a rock shelf. (Bug #24752)
000BB723, 000EA947: Floating trees. (Bug #24762, Bug #24576)
05089121, 05089122: Rocks placed to cover a gap at the base of a mountain peak. (Bug #24782)
0006D92B, 0006DDBE, 000E6BD7, 000EBF3E: Misplaced flowers and other flora. (Bug #24783)
00043937, 00043938, 000481E1, 0004BD1C, 0004BD1F, 0004BD22, 00059A1C, 00059A1D, 0006D641, 0006F2F7, 0008826F, 0009CBF6, 0009CBFA, 0009CBFB, 0009CBFD, 0009CBFE, 0009CEE2, 000A06F7, 000A06F8, 000A06F9, 000A06FA, 000A06FC, 000A06FD, 000AB115, 000B500D, 000BBBB8, 000BBBB9, 000C8E86, 000D9A10, 000E6BE5, 000EBF3C, 000FCD63, 000FCD64, 000FCD67, 01000CEB, 01000CEC, 01000CEE, 01000CFB, 01000D08, 01000D09, 01000D12, 01000D16, 01000D1A, 01000D1B, 01000D1C, 01000D1D, 01000D1F, 01000D23, 01000D30, 01000D33, 010011C3, 01001697, 01001F5C, 0100205F, 0100207D: Misplaced thickets and shrubs. (Bug #24784)
Text Fixes
SkillPickpocket2: "Eslaf guessed that that if Suoibud was as paranoid as he guessed him to be, the tower would also provide a view of the palace storehouse." -> "Eslaf guessed that if Suoibud was as paranoid as he guessed him to be, the tower would also provide a view of the palace storehouse." (Bug #24322)
DA15 [Stage 10]: "To do so, I need to gain entrance to the Pelagius Wing of the Blue palace." -> "To do so, I need to gain entrance to the Pelagius Wing of the Blue Palace." (Bug #24325)
CWMission03 [Stage 200]: "I have successfully intercepted and turned in false documents to the enemy commander in <Alias=EnemyCapital>" -> "I have successfully intercepted the <Alias=Courier>and turned in false documents to the enemy commander in <Alias=EnemyCapital>" (Bug #24326)
JailQuest: "Retrieve your posessions" -> "Retrieve your possessions" (Bug #24456)
DialogueWhiterun [0002BDE3]: "Be glad you're here in the city, and not out in Riverwood. Those poor sods don't even have a wall. -> "Be glad you're here in the city and not out in Riverwood. Those poor sods don't even have a wall." (Bug #24458)
MS05GiraurdPoeticEddaDescription2: "If I'm right Svaknir and King Olaf's Verse lie in Dead Men's Respite, along with the burial chamber of King Olaf himself." -> "If I'm right, Svaknir and King Olaf's Verse lie in Dead Men's Respite, along with the burial chamber of King Olaf himself." (Bug #24604)
DialogueWindhelmLonelyGaleTopicsActivitiyTopic: "If you're need of goods, there's a market." -> "If you're in need of goods, there's a market." (Bug #24607)
The USSEP, like any other mod, is owned by and the result of the hard work of the USSEP team. Who are you to demand that they make their mod to your specifications that they don't agree with? Who are you to dictate what bugs the USSEP team is and isn't allowed to fix?
Here's another thing: the USSEP team does not have a monopoly on fixing bugs. If you or anyone are so opposed to the fixes, you are more than welcome to create your own bugfix compilation to whatever standard you want. Just remember though that it takes a lot of time and effort to earn a good reputation and the USSEP team has definitely earned theirs.
Also, speaking of standards, since everyone has their own, I have no doubt that anyone who tries to make their own "pure" bugfix mod will make a change that riles up some people. Then that compilation will have it's own fringe group making the same sort of demands that you are doing right now.
Let's see. That's the Ad Hominem (they are arrogant and puffed up), baseless assertion (no evidence submitted to support these assertions), Non Sequitur (where is the link between "they are arrogant" and "they don't fix bugs"), thinly veiled attacks on their mental states and possibly some more I can't think of right now.
In summary, your comment is just more of what I complained about in my previous post: USSEP team bashing and logical gymnastics.
Edit: Another thing is that you and others posting here have been consistently guilty of the No True Scotsman fallacy by claiming that exploits are not "real" bugs.
If you count it as a bug being a vampire has more weaknesses than strengths which doesn't make much sense.
Of course if you're playing with a vampire overhaul then Necromage would just make you Overpowered.
In one hand we have the fact that the word "against" usually means "opposite" (in a hostile manner, but not necessarily) and so supports the BUG theory.
In the other hand we have the fact that the word "against" might be used as meaning "opposite" (BUT in a NON hostile manner, as proved in this commentary section), and at the same time the game mechanics kinda supports this NON hostile theory (whether is a bug, or not).
So both interpretations in MY opinion could be correct.
I think the real problem here is that the only thing that may serve as a guide for us is a simple sentece that it is kind of ambiguous.
Bethesda could have made this much more clear by changing the sentence to:
-All spells casted on undead are more effective
or
-All spells are more effective against undead enemies.
First, you aren't really presenting anything new but are really just rehashing arguments that have already been made and refuted. So, instead of reinventing the wheel, I'm just going to quote my previous posts when appropriate.
Next, I'm going to assume that English is not your first language either due to the spelling and grammar mistakes in your post. Thus, my advice to hacnsm applies to you as well:
This doesn't get you off the hook. This discussion is about facts, not opinions. If you are not 100% sure of what you are saying about factual topics, all this means is that you either need to do more research or keep it to yourself.
This is not accurate in any way. Let me re-quote the actual definition of "against":
As you can see, the word "opposite" doesn't appear anywhere in this definition. The word "opposition" does but that is where not fully understanding English can fail you. Despite looking similar, the word "opposition" is not synonymous with "opposite". The actual definition of it is:
There is no basis for claiming that it can be used in a non-hostile manner.
Also, in your haste to become an acrobat, you have made a fatal mistake. Let's pretend, for a bit, that the word "against" does mean "opposite", as you claim, and replace "against" with "opposite" in the perk's description. We get:
In other words, this perk affects spells used on the opposite of undead. If this was true, it would reinforce my claim that the perk is definitely bugged because not only is it affecting undead when it shouldn't, it is not affecting non-undead when it should.
What proof? You failed to specify what exactly "proves" that this exploit is not an exploit. Are you referring to the number of people voting that way? If so, that is an Argumentum Ad Populum and, hence, illogical. Or maybe you are referring to something someone said that has already been refuted.
Furthermore, there is this statement I made previously, which neither you nor anyone else has refuted:
So let's hear it. If Necromage is working as intended, why is it affecting all of these things that are not spells?
That logical fallacy is Begging the Question. Are we to believe that we "know" Necromage is intended to affect friendly undead because that is it's vanilla behaviour? Are we to completely ignore all the evidence that has been presented demonstrating that this is not the intended behaviour?
And the belief that Necromage is working as intended is based on .... what exactly? It's pretty silly to say that the "Necromage is bugged" side is based on just a sentence when the "Necromage is fine" side doesn't even have that to support their reasoning. In fact, this is the fallacy of the Double Standard as well as a form of Moving the Goalposts.
Finally, your claim that the sentence is ambiguous is wrong. As I have repeatedly demonstrated, the sentence's meaning is perfectly clear. Ambiguity only exists in the minds of people who so desperately want this exploit to be part of the game.
"I'll admit that I want this because I want to exploit it. This is a singleplayer game. There is no honor in increasing its difficulty or playing it in a completely broken way. If part of the fun of gameplay is using these exploits, then great. If you want to add a mod that increases difficulty or even results in perma-death, there are mods for this too."
he's not contradicting himself at all, he's just saying it's okay to play the game the way you like since it's singleplayer... and especially he isn't dictating anyone how to play this game, he's doing the opposite.
by the effort you put in this argument and the way you responded, especially belitteling people for grammar mistakes, you just made yourself look really arrogant. yes you're right it's an exploit and yes it's rightfully patched out but man... don't take this so personally you don't have to prove anything, if they don't believe you after you presented them the facts it's not going to lead anywhere.
also only because someone isn't perfectly fluent in a foreign language it doesn't mean he/she is automatically incapable of understanding you.
if you're only "advising" someone to lowkey insult them you should keep it to yourself since advice paired with insults isn't going to help anyone.
(kind of ironic I know)
come down from your high horse and double check before you jump on every single sentence someone is saying next time
PS: i don't even play as a vampire and i use vokrii that fixes the unofficial fix of necromage perk.
Can be used in positive or negative way like "heal AGAINST Target" or "saving AGAINST your Will".
When someone heals you without asking its a hostile action first but on the second thought welcome.
Logical or not as long Bethesda dont say its a bug or not, there is not right or wrong.
Skyrim exist since 2011 with original Patches + Special Edition 2016 with original Patches and still it existed.
You cant say Bethesda was never aware of this "bug" because there are plenty guides and builds around it.
Blood on the Ice was/is a bug because they tried to fix it.
As long as Bethesda dont say its a bug/exploit it remains to be a feature.
But the spell character cast,should work on himself,why should't i take more armor from my spell or more time to mufle.
Aspect of Terror has already proven that the USSEP team is not all right in the head. It's been 10 years since the game was released, and Scaled Armor, Hide Armor and Studded Armor have not been fixed in the leg area, legs sticking out through the armor texture. Karl, it's been 10 years! Against and directed are words with the same meaning and I see no reason to kill game mechanics. Targeting the undead means targeting any object that is undead, including the protagonist! Can you aim the weapon at yourself? The Necromage is initially correct, and your dull delirium is disgusting, especially your repetitions of what you already stated earlier. Sounds like a slogan mania, but not dialogue. Comparing the broken Blood in the Snow quest to the perk mechanic is the greatest folly! The scripts are broken in the quest. Enchantments on armor and weapons are the same spells that have acquired a vessel in the form of armor or weapons!
This entire argument is a waste of time.
Nor have you explained how someone simultaneously saying that exploits are great and that "There is no honor in ... playing it in a completely broken way" (which is what exploits are) is not a contradiction. In fact, you seem to have completely sidestepped this one.
Not to mention that interpreting his post as "it's wrong to tell others how to play the game" only makes sense if people were doing that. This is not the case. To quote the very first paragraph of my 2nd post:
Perhaps you are the one who actually didn't understand.
Also, Double Standard fallacy. Why are you complaining about me supposedly "lowkey insulting" people while remaining silent about all the exploit revisionists here who are openly insulting the USKP team and anyone who dares to disagree with them (including ShibePatrol)?
Almost everything you wrote is just a blatant Begging the Question fallacy. The perk's coding is working as intended because the code is working as intended? Nowhere did you actually engage the points we have made showing that the code is not working as intended.
And even your attempt at lawyering doesn't work because you've committed a Composition and/or Division Fallacy. They did not try to fix that specific bug I pointed out. So all you've done is further invalidate your own argument. By your logic, that Bethesda fixed other bugs in Blood on the Ice and yet, left the bug I mentioned intact further proves that they are aware of it and even further proves that they approve of it.
And on top of that, Blood on the Ice is far from the only example in the game I can use. There are plenty of examples of well known bugs with easy fixes which Bethesda made no even remote attempt to fix them.
Furthermore, I can use the same "logic": As long as Bethesda doesn't say it's not a bug/exploit, it remains a bug/exploit.
You made absolutely zero effort to prove any of the claims you made there. Instead, you just expect everyone to take your word for it. Not good enough. Present proof. Especially considering this blatant contradiction between your assertions and reality:
On top of that, the moment someone resorts to Ad Hominem attacks is the moment you know that they don't have a case. The fact that your reply is riddled with mockery and laughing at me shows that you are not in a position to judge who is and isn't dirty until you clean your own filth.
too much seriour on a single player game full of bug and exploits even with the fix/neft mod why?
You're not saying anything that hasn't already been answered. To repeat what we have been saying from the start: No one is going to judge you if you just acknowledge that you want to use this exploit. However, pretending that this is not an exploit, engaging in mental gymnastics and kicking basic logic to the curb to justify this stance, is not okay.
And to repeat myself, yet again: No one here is going to judge you if you just acknowledge that you want to use these exploits. However, pretending that they are not exploits, engaging in mental gymnastics and kicking basic logic to the curb to justify this stance, is not okay.
And your massively off-topic remark about a completely unrelated bug (legs clipping through armour) is exactly that.
Besides that thinly veiled attack, it is the facts that matter here, not your personal feelings. Leave your emotions at the door. In fact, when you have to use your feelings to justify your stance, it's a good indication that you should take a step back and re-think why exactly you have adopted that stance. And to reconsider the stance you're opposing: Do you have any facts to back your opposition or is it just feelings?
Besides, I can play that game as well. What if I say that everyone's mental gymnastics and fact-free assertions are disgusting? How would you answer that without undermining your own statement?
I suspect that it is because they are all on your side, so why would you undermine them.
I suspect that you can't answer any of these because your post was fuelled by Confirmation Bias. You've already concluded that the perk is working as it should and are interpreting the facts to fit this conclusion.
Furthermore, you find it disgusting that I keep repeating myself. This right here shows why I have to keep doing it: You people don't listen. The whole "enchantments are a type of spell" has already been brought up and dealt with previously and yet, here you are simply parroting it again. You claim that I'm not interested in dialogue and yet, a crucial part of dialogue is listening to what has already been said. Again, this is looking like projection on your part. In future, read, think about and engage what has already been said. Or don't, but then don't be surprised if my reply is to just repeat what I've already said.
have already been made by people claiming that the perk is not bugged.
As has already been said, this logic invalidates every single fix the USSEP has made. You could point to any one of them and say that it hasn't been fixed to date because Bethesda chose to keep it in or because they didn't think it was worth it. This means that the various bugs in Blood on the Ice (some game breaking) were intentional. Of course, all of this is just a False Dilemma fallacy.
2. Just because Obi-Wan said something doesn't automatically make it so.
3. That's a very problematic claim. If I point at a blue wall and say, "This is blue," am I now a Sith because I'm dealing in absolutes? Is it only a Sith who would say that this website is Nexus Mods (an absolute)?
Please, if you read this, I am begging you, DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD, anything that you have to say on the matter has probably already been said a thousand times, and it won't be of any help to the users of this mod. Let's all just ignore this thread, starting now.
"If you're having this problem, transform into Vampire Lord form and then revert form. Unless you took the necromage perk before becoming a vampire, the effects like weakness to fire and resistance to ice will not be affected, but enchantments, perks, and standing stones are."