Quick straw poll to see the general opinion: In Skyrim, the Orcs are taller than the nords(1.045 to 1.03 for Orcs and Nords), in racial body morphs I followed this precedent and kept them larger; some people contest this and would prefer nords were slightly taller like they were in morrowind. (1.06 to 1.05 for Nords and Orcs) Which race do you think should be taller in Skyrim?: http://www.strawpoll.me/18783630/r
Version 1.2 is live lads. Completely stable version of 1.1, decapitation bug fixed. If you were avoiding the last few releases due to bugs they are all squashed now. Those using older versions should really update, the 1.1 morphs are leagues better, and also work better with the in game camera and editors.(I've scaled them all to be equal height before their in game scaling, so the numbers won't be as wildly off as they were in the older one.)
Extreme and Subtle fixes coming soon.(Extreme first, because that's the one I use ...)
All three versions are bug fixed and up to date, this is the stable release.(I have no more WIP issues with the morphs or any bugs) Subtle-Standard-Extreme ready for Download.
Got an update coming, fixed a few issues like: some hip/leg and arm length issues that some people had problems with. Head size on a few races being too small I've also got a Subtle(Light) version for those who don't want drastic changes but still want diverse races. It'll be more in line with oblivion/Morrowind, and morphs will work better with things like body mods, and will work with a wider variety of characters for each race. As for height changes, this is the current list I have for the three versions.(Subtle - Standard - Extreme) Altmer: 1.12 - 1.16 - 1.2 Orc: 1.08 - 1.1 - 1.12 Nord: 1.06 - 1.08 - 1.09 Argonian: 1.05 - 1.07 - 1.08 Redguard: 1.045 - 1.06 - 1.075 DarkElf: 1.03 - 1.045 - 1.06 Imperial: 1.01 - 1.015 - 1.02 Breton: 1.00 - 0.985 - 0.98 Khajiit: 0.985 - 0.98 - 0.975 Woodelf: 0.97 - 0.96 - 0.95
Subtle - Standard - Extreme (Instead of arguing in the depths of the comments about which race should be taller than which, argue here instead, because I am taking suggestions/opinions into account.) Lore, previous games, and even just plain old personal preference or the impression you get from each race is welcome for change suggestions:
Why did you choose the heights you chose instead of copying the heights from Oblivion and Morrowind? For example, you've made orcs much taller (visually speaking) than nords, despite the fact that they were the same height as them in Oblivion and were actually 0.01 shorter than them in Morrowind. The only races that had height changes from Morrowind to Oblivion were orcs and redguard males, and those were only by 0.01, so it seems like the easiest thing to do would be to just 1-1 copy the stats from Oblivion. Just curious. Love the intention of the mod, though.
Simple personal preference, but I do have cherry picked lore to back me up. Mainly, The orcs in Skyrim, for whatever reason, are quite a bit larger than the nords in the vanilla game. I personally think most people vastly prefer it this way, as I've had waaay more requests for even larger and more hulking orcs than I've had for nords. Besides that, the roles in game for nords are so much more variable than for orcs, they're the generic peasants/farmers/scrawny mail deliverers/etc. in Oblivion they were rare and distinct, so it made sense for them to stick out. Not so in Skyrim. It can be said that Beth has slowly retconned their shorter orcs from Morrowind until now.(Just like they've done with the wood elf height disparity from Morrowind to Skyrim to ESO.) I think this is just the way orcs have developed in Fantasy, going from small boarish mooks to hulking berserker warriors.
As for why I made minor buffs to Redguard/Dunmer and Argonian, it's simply because their vanilla heights were so inconsequential, they were taller by a percentage you would never notice, I wanted to keep the hierarchy of height mostly the same,, but make it more noticable. At the least, I left redguards shorter than Nords, a lot of height mods over the years have made redguards taller, probably due to some NBA stereotypes.... lol.. Anyway, glad you like the mod, hope my logic is reasonable enough for you lol.(Early on I considered making a taller nord misc add-on, but only 1 person ever asked AFAI remember)
Bosmer are the one race where the women are actually taller than the men. In fact, they're 'regular person' height. (the women are height 1 in morrowind and Oblivion. That's the height of a breton/imperial male!) Though with them only being 2% of Skyrim's population (of which only some are even female) it's not like it's that big of a deal. I'll have disparity load after this and maybe the heights will overwrite.
This is very cool, and seems to be the most comprehensive approach to this. However, if you go back through all the lore, there are some issues with several of these ratios. E.g., you find that the Bretons are supposed to be tall (and described as tall but thin) starting with Arena; they're part Altmer, going back to ancient times. I even wrote a patch for this, but didn't release it because I realized others have done it before (e.g. Bretons Corrected by NinthArcher), and there are too many competing/conflicting race tweak mods (which is why I produced Skyrim Race Records Master instead!).
Since Morrowind, Bretons have been made shorter than Nords, and I guess we can accept that (call it loss of height from dilution of High Elf genes). So NinthArcher's "between Nord and Altmer" approach defies later lore to agree with older lore, and isn't practical since if you make almost everyone tall, then that's not tall any more but just a new average.
Regardless, Bretons likely shouldn't be shorter than Imperials, especially since your declared intent here is to make the latter stocky (even stockier than previously due to the Skyrim's population of them mostly being thugs I mean legionnaires). They were already typically stocky as far back as Morrowind (which used horizontal expansion as its "weight" adjustment (height was controlled by skeleton and scale), producing fairly short, but broad-shouldered and broad-faced Imperials; the look was consistent enough some people who didn't like it made Imperial mods to make them look less stocky.
Basically, Imperials shouldn't be over (or under) 1.0 in height; they are the average/median, and should just be 1.0 They're the empire-wide baseline from which the others diverge. (Though making females shorter for dimorphism is sensible). Next, there isn't any lore-based rationale for making Redguards notably taller than this (only slightly, and males only). I agree with making them more lean and athletic, given their "gifted natural warriors" description; between this and their their coloration difference, there's no reason to make them taller for additional diversity. Khajiit are the same height as Imperials (except females a little smaller), just not stocky, and already diverse enough in looks. Dunmer have consistently been the same height as Imperials (both genders) since Morrowind.
See UESP's race stats charts for Morrowind and Oblivion. The games were not entirely consistent. However one point of consistent lore you've inverted: they agree Bosmer males are shorter than females though broader/heavier, a reverse dimorphism many of us are adamant about. Even Skyrim has it, but someone screwed up and only implemented it in the vampire version of the race. Unofficial Patch series normalized toward the non-vampire stats, but this produced a direct conflict with all the previous lore and also made it very hard to tell Altmer and Bosmer apart. This is one of the things I optionally fixed in Race Records Master, normalizing to the vamp stats.
UESP's lists for Daggerfall and Arena don't have numeric specifics, but their quotes from the in-game race descriptions are good additional sources for things like Bretons being above-average height. This all reveals some conflicts, though. Early on, sometimes both Redguards and Dark Elves were described as "tall" like Bretons, Nords, Argonians, High Elves, etc. (leaving very few non-tall races in the early games – that "tall is the new average" problem). Redguard males retained a bit of extra height in Morrowind and Oblivion, while Bretons inexplicably lost it. This seems to just be a Bethesda "lorekeeper" failure. My own approach has been to average them out, with both being a bit taller than Imperials on the male side. Nords were a hair taller than Orcs in Morrowind, and the females retained this edge in Oblivion, so I wouldn't make Nords shorter than Orcs in both sexes as you've done here, especially since Orcs are already bulky/broad.
I'm going to use your mod next play-through, but will be tweaking stuff, especially making Imperials 1.0 and thick, Dunmer the same height but leaner, Redguard males only tiny bit taller, and Bretons about the same height as you have Redguards now, just thin, then Orcs a bit less tall than Nords, more so for the females (I saw your post above, but it boils does to "because I felt like it" >;-). And your reversal of the "amazon" Bosmer females definitely has to go!
I do appreciate you putting together this mod, since it's a roadmap for how to do this sort of thing.
Now, if only someone would figure out how to assign different body meshes on a race-by-race basis like we could with Blockhead and its BodyAssetOverrides in Oblivion. That's the holy grail. Given all the stuff SKSE can do, it's weird to me that no one's figured this out yet (and hopefully less obtusely than Blockhead was done; has pretty much the most confusing documentation I've ever seen).
Now, before I attempt any argument, I'll start with conceding points that I agree with:
1. Making the nord male shorter than the orc female is excessive, next time I update the extreme version I will put the nord at 1.1
2.I have acknowledged that for the most part(Besides ESO) woodelf females are taller than woodelf males. I've conceded plenty of times that this is the norm, and knew from the mod's conception that this was expected.
Early on I had a mod file to keep the height disparity how it was while still keeping wood elves short.(I believe females were 1.75 to males 1.7) This is pure preference, though I may go back and either average them out(Like ESO) but at the very least looking back I feel I made the wood elf females far too short in any case.(Will fix next update)
3. I do think Imperials should be the medium sized race, but the actual numbers don't matter much to me, the numbers I have are mainly to keep the races/gender general distance from each other in height while keeping them from going under 0.9(As I have had issues with low scaling like that). Ultimately the number being 1.00 or 1.01 is basically insignificant and would probably not be noticed outside of the creation kit. Now, for the parts I don't agree with.
To begin my response, let me reiterate the purpose of this mod: The mod's goal is to: Increase the body disparity between the races and genders(By height and weight), and to give them scaling and physique based off of lore AND abilities.(This is important.)
Now, those aside, I think every other choice I've made is overall consistent with the lore, racial abilities, aesthetics, and the mod's intention. I've also thoroughly looked through all of those resources when making this mod, as well as the historical stats and roles of every race.
1.Bretons first: Breton's height being above average was referenced twice, both in games whose lore I did take into account, but only to a minor extent, as there are many retoconns since then. Ultimately, bretons have been shorter than imperials in 3 games(I weight the average of male and female to get the height, bretons are on average shorter) in the series and tall in only 2.(In a game where imperials didn't exist.) Besides that, Bretons are descendant from aldmer and nedic people. Nedes are the ancestors of the shorter imperials, but imperials also have atmoran ancestry(Who were giants, and ancestors of the nords.) It is likely that the nedes are where the bretons get their height, especially given that despite my own RP edits, bretons have little enough aldmer mixture that they show no manifestation of aldmer features. Even then, aldmer are the ancestors of bosmer as well as altmer, so height isn't guaranteed, especially where altmer have been selectively bred to look superior.
2. Redguards - There is definitely precedent to add a greater height disparity between redguards and imperials. Redguards have been taller in all of the modern games. The difference between Imperials and redguards in oblivion is the same difference between nords and imperials in Skyrim. This alone is enough of a justification. Now, I'm not saying that short races can't be strong or great warriors, but besides the previous height precedent, redguards are considered the best warriors in tamriel, and they have strength stats equal to nords and orcs in Oblivion, I think they fit where they are. Finally, the dark skin is not enough distinction for me, if it was I wouldn't have made the mod at all, as the head disparity between races is fine as is. The goal is to make the bodies and heights different, not the heads. Also; Check out this imperial farmer and tell me that dark skin is distinct enough: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-npc-Farmer_02.jpg
3.Dunmer, here's where I see that you, like me, are driven be personal preference. You choose to make Dunmer equal to imperials while making bretons equal to redguards, and your justification is the 1.00 scaling for dunmer.
Yet: In early games, just like the breton, dunmer were referred to as tall, unlike the bretons, they weren't shortened afterwords. Secondly, as far as ancestry goes, Dunmer are direct descendants of chimer who were physically identical to aldmer. So if bretons are tall because of aldmer DNA(Despite being 100% nedic in appearance), then why would you make dunmer, who are their direct descendants, and who combined have been taller than bretons, shorter?
For me, Dunmer being equal in strength to Imperials, despite being much leaner, works better with an increased height, besides that they have very high speed, in the real world, the fastest runners and men are much taller than average. Add in their historical height description, and their superior, master race, looking down on other races attitude(Similar or worse to the altmer), I think the minor increase in height suits them better, and is far more justified than the height increase in bretons. (Even if I did increase breton height, which I wouldn't completely discount, I'd still put them below the dunmer)
Orcs: Just like with the dunmer, this is mere personal preference. It is equally lore friendly to make Orcs taller than nords, if not moreso.(Since they are taller in Skyrim, the game that this mod is set in.) This isn't just a matter of personal preference. It is ultimately more lore friendly to make Skyrim orcs taller than it is to make the Nords taller, hell, even orc women are taller than nord men in base Skyrim.(Which is why lore isn't the only thing to consider, as I do plan on shrinking that disparity and making them the same height) The height difference is also less significant in morrowind than the orc to nord height difference is in Skyrim.. Percentage wise and in absolute numbers, weighting it more heavily towards orcs. At the very least a real lore friendly version would make orcs only somewhat taller or at least equal in height. But again, it's all personal preference.
Khajiit: Khajiit have been smaller than imperials and dunmer in every game. (Again, I weight the average between both genders.) They have never been described as tall, and even have tall subspecies to contrast their smaller ones. That along with their lightness and sneakyness fits well with their new height for me. Khajiit's head appearance doesn't figure into the equation, as it not the intended purpose of the mod. I think the kitty folk are best a little smaller, there are "raht" version that are better suited for the large variants.
Ultimately, even though I contest a lot of your points, I appreciate the thought you put into it, and moreso the fact that you aim to change the values yourself.(A very easy task that few in the earlier days of this mod seemed willing.) Ultimately, I think my version, besides the wood elves, is more consistent with the lore, stats, aesthetics, personality, character roles and combined height descriptions of the characters, I don't see the mod as a roadmap, as I think it stands against the scrutiny,(Again, woodelf females, 100% are just me choosing to use ESO lore when I never would anyway, it is just because I felt like >;-) ) but I'm totally cool with users using it that way. Hell, I'm open to people posting their own versions as mods with changed height values.
I will definitely factor some of your opinions in when/if I update again. But for the most part, I think my ratios stand, thanks for commenting and giving me the upportinity to outline why I chose the heights I chose, cheers man.
i report some bugs, it can't compatible with hdt 3bbb body, idk why. i love this, but you know buggy game isn't fun at all. any suggestion how can i fix this bug body chest?
I know that it's late reply, I think the reason why argonians was taller than redguards was like khajit and the cycle of moon which created a different variant of the same race some of them was bulkier and tall or sometimes it has literal lizard that walking in all fours which is used by the dark elves in morrowind
Bug: The mod takes the clothes off the follower, disappears with everything he has left naked or with base attire. When removing the mod and reinstalling the game the same error persists. Message saying that some object file is missing, I don't know what it is that it deletes or changes that gives this error. I used vortex, SKSE and it continues like that even without the mod or vortex, I just wanted to report the mod is so amazing, I was sad that I lost the follower costume.
does this mod work with your orc overhaul mod? I really like the extra attributes you added on that mod(berserker strength). But I do want bigger nords and elves as well. Or is it possible to able to choose which races in this mod I would like to be larger and which remain the same? Sorry for the bad English. Thx.
Learn how to use tesvedit and make a patch. You will need a patch to combine different mods that edit the races (Orcs), and you can remove the races from this one that you want to stay the same.
Orc Overhaul can just be used straight over this, it will only overwrite orcs it works 100% fine. I use it myself. (I don't play LE but the SE version.)
Is this also supports XPMS? I am not asking the XPMSE On description it says "Now compatible with XPMSE!"but the thing is XPMSE isnt compatible with nemesis so I am trying to find a middle ground. So I wonder if this still supports XPMS instead.
Aw, whaaaat, is THAT why my weapon bug came back?! Isn't ragdoll related to weight though? I use the skeletons and heights as replacers in another mod, so weights should be vanilla still. :T
"they're the generic peasants/farmers/scrawny mail deliverers/" I love this mod but this comment, man I promise you farmers are definitely not scrawny or weak.
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In Skyrim, the Orcs are taller than the nords(1.045 to 1.03 for Orcs and Nords), in racial body morphs I followed this precedent and kept them larger; some people contest this and would prefer nords were slightly taller like they were in morrowind. (1.06 to 1.05 for Nords and Orcs)
Which race do you think should be taller in Skyrim?:
http://www.strawpoll.me/18783630/r
Those using older versions should really update, the 1.1 morphs are leagues better, and also work better with the in game camera and editors.(I've scaled them all to be equal height before their in game scaling, so the numbers won't be as wildly off as they were in the older one.)
Extreme and Subtle fixes coming soon.(Extreme first, because that's the one I use ...)
Subtle-Standard-Extreme ready for Download.
I've also got a Subtle(Light) version for those who don't want drastic changes but still want diverse races. It'll be more in line with oblivion/Morrowind, and morphs will work better with things like body mods, and will work with a wider variety of characters for each race.
As for height changes, this is the current list I have for the three versions.(Subtle - Standard - Extreme)
Altmer: 1.12 - 1.16 - 1.2
Orc: 1.08 - 1.1 - 1.12
Nord: 1.06 - 1.08 - 1.09
Argonian: 1.05 - 1.07 - 1.08
Redguard: 1.045 - 1.06 - 1.075
DarkElf: 1.03 - 1.045 - 1.06
Imperial: 1.01 - 1.015 - 1.02
Breton: 1.00 - 0.985 - 0.98
Khajiit: 0.985 - 0.98 - 0.975
Woodelf: 0.97 - 0.96 - 0.95
Female:
Altmer: 1.1 - 1.12 - 1.16
Orc: 1.06 - 1.08 - 1.1
Nord: 1.045 - 1.06 - 1.07
Argonian: 1.03 - 1.045 - 1.06
Redguard: 1.015 - 1.03 - 1.045
DarkElf: 1.01 - 1.015 - 1.03
Imperial: 0.985 - 0.98 - 0.96
Breton: 0.96 - 0.95 - 0.94
Khajiit: 0.95 - 0.94 - 0.92
Woodelf: 0.94 - 0.92 - 0.9
Subtle - Standard - Extreme
(Instead of arguing in the depths of the comments about which race should be taller than which, argue here instead, because I am taking suggestions/opinions into account.)
Lore, previous games, and even just plain old personal preference or the impression you get from each race is welcome for change suggestions:
Mainly, The orcs in Skyrim, for whatever reason, are quite a bit larger than the nords in the vanilla game.
I personally think most people vastly prefer it this way, as I've had waaay more requests for even larger and more hulking orcs than I've had for nords.
Besides that, the roles in game for nords are so much more variable than for orcs, they're the generic peasants/farmers/scrawny mail deliverers/etc. in Oblivion they were rare and distinct, so it made sense for them to stick out. Not so in Skyrim.
It can be said that Beth has slowly retconned their shorter orcs from Morrowind until now.(Just like they've done with the wood elf height disparity from Morrowind to Skyrim to ESO.) I think this is just the way orcs have developed in Fantasy, going from small boarish mooks to hulking berserker warriors.
As for why I made minor buffs to Redguard/Dunmer and Argonian, it's simply because their vanilla heights were so inconsequential, they were taller by a percentage you would never notice, I wanted to keep the hierarchy of height mostly the same,, but make it more noticable.
At the least, I left redguards shorter than Nords, a lot of height mods over the years have made redguards taller, probably due to some NBA stereotypes.... lol..
Anyway, glad you like the mod, hope my logic is reasonable enough for you lol.(Early on I considered making a taller nord misc add-on, but only 1 person ever asked AFAI remember)
Since Morrowind, Bretons have been made shorter than Nords, and I guess we can accept that (call it loss of height from dilution of High Elf genes). So NinthArcher's "between Nord and Altmer" approach defies later lore to agree with older lore, and isn't practical since if you make almost everyone tall, then that's not tall any more but just a new average.
Regardless, Bretons likely shouldn't be shorter than Imperials, especially since your declared intent here is to make the latter stocky (even stockier than previously due to the Skyrim's population of them mostly being thugs I mean legionnaires). They were already typically stocky as far back as Morrowind (which used horizontal expansion as its "weight" adjustment (height was controlled by skeleton and scale), producing fairly short, but broad-shouldered and broad-faced Imperials; the look was consistent enough some people who didn't like it made Imperial mods to make them look less stocky.
Basically, Imperials shouldn't be over (or under) 1.0 in height; they are the average/median, and should just be 1.0 They're the empire-wide baseline from which the others diverge. (Though making females shorter for dimorphism is sensible). Next, there isn't any lore-based rationale for making Redguards notably taller than this (only slightly, and males only). I agree with making them more lean and athletic, given their "gifted natural warriors" description; between this and their their coloration difference, there's no reason to make them taller for additional diversity. Khajiit are the same height as Imperials (except females a little smaller), just not stocky, and already diverse enough in looks. Dunmer have consistently been the same height as Imperials (both genders) since Morrowind.
See UESP's race stats charts for Morrowind and Oblivion. The games were not entirely consistent. However one point of consistent lore you've inverted: they agree Bosmer males are shorter than females though broader/heavier, a reverse dimorphism many of us are adamant about. Even Skyrim has it, but someone screwed up and only implemented it in the vampire version of the race. Unofficial Patch series normalized toward the non-vampire stats, but this produced a direct conflict with all the previous lore and also made it very hard to tell Altmer and Bosmer apart. This is one of the things I optionally fixed in Race Records Master, normalizing to the vamp stats.
UESP's lists for Daggerfall and Arena don't have numeric specifics, but their quotes from the in-game race descriptions are good additional sources for things like Bretons being above-average height. This all reveals some conflicts, though. Early on, sometimes both Redguards and Dark Elves were described as "tall" like Bretons, Nords, Argonians, High Elves, etc. (leaving very few non-tall races in the early games – that "tall is the new average" problem). Redguard males retained a bit of extra height in Morrowind and Oblivion, while Bretons inexplicably lost it. This seems to just be a Bethesda "lorekeeper" failure. My own approach has been to average them out, with both being a bit taller than Imperials on the male side. Nords were a hair taller than Orcs in Morrowind, and the females retained this edge in Oblivion, so I wouldn't make Nords shorter than Orcs in both sexes as you've done here, especially since Orcs are already bulky/broad.
I'm going to use your mod next play-through, but will be tweaking stuff, especially making Imperials 1.0 and thick, Dunmer the same height but leaner, Redguard males only tiny bit taller, and Bretons about the same height as you have Redguards now, just thin, then Orcs a bit less tall than Nords, more so for the females (I saw your post above, but it boils does to "because I felt like it" >;-). And your reversal of the "amazon" Bosmer females definitely has to go!
I do appreciate you putting together this mod, since it's a roadmap for how to do this sort of thing.
Now, if only someone would figure out how to assign different body meshes on a race-by-race basis like we could with Blockhead and its BodyAssetOverrides in Oblivion. That's the holy grail. Given all the stuff SKSE can do, it's weird to me that no one's figured this out yet (and hopefully less obtusely than Blockhead was done; has pretty much the most confusing documentation I've ever seen).
1. Making the nord male shorter than the orc female is excessive, next time I update the extreme version I will put the nord at 1.1
2.I have acknowledged that for the most part(Besides ESO) woodelf females are taller than woodelf males.
I've conceded plenty of times that this is the norm, and knew from the mod's conception that this was expected.
Early on I had a mod file to keep the height disparity how it was while still keeping wood elves short.(I believe females were 1.75 to males 1.7)
This is pure preference, though I may go back and either average them out(Like ESO) but at the very least looking back I feel I made the wood elf females far too short in any case.(Will fix next update)
3. I do think Imperials should be the medium sized race, but the actual numbers don't matter much to me, the numbers I have are mainly to keep the races/gender general distance from each other in height while keeping them from going under 0.9(As I have had issues with low scaling like that). Ultimately the number being 1.00 or 1.01 is basically insignificant and would probably not be noticed outside of the creation kit.
Now, for the parts I don't agree with.
To begin my response, let me reiterate the purpose of this mod:
The mod's goal is to: Increase the body disparity between the races and genders(By height and weight), and to give them scaling and physique based off of lore AND abilities.(This is important.)
Now, those aside, I think every other choice I've made is overall consistent with the lore, racial abilities, aesthetics, and the mod's intention.
I've also thoroughly looked through all of those resources when making this mod, as well as the historical stats and roles of every race.
1.Bretons first: Breton's height being above average was referenced twice, both in games whose lore I did take into account, but only to a minor extent, as there are many retoconns since then.
Ultimately, bretons have been shorter than imperials in 3 games(I weight the average of male and female to get the height, bretons are on average shorter) in the series and tall in only 2.(In a game where imperials didn't exist.)
Besides that, Bretons are descendant from aldmer and nedic people. Nedes are the ancestors of the shorter imperials, but imperials also have atmoran ancestry(Who were giants, and ancestors of the nords.)
It is likely that the nedes are where the bretons get their height, especially given that despite my own RP edits, bretons have little enough aldmer mixture that they show no manifestation of aldmer features.
Even then, aldmer are the ancestors of bosmer as well as altmer, so height isn't guaranteed, especially where altmer have been selectively bred to look superior.
2. Redguards - There is definitely precedent to add a greater height disparity between redguards and imperials. Redguards have been taller in all of the modern games. The difference between Imperials and redguards in oblivion is the same difference between nords and imperials in Skyrim. This alone is enough of a justification.
Now, I'm not saying that short races can't be strong or great warriors, but besides the previous height precedent, redguards are considered the best warriors in tamriel, and they have strength stats equal to nords and orcs in Oblivion, I think they fit where they are.
Finally, the dark skin is not enough distinction for me, if it was I wouldn't have made the mod at all, as the head disparity between races is fine as is.
The goal is to make the bodies and heights different, not the heads.
Also; Check out this imperial farmer and tell me that dark skin is distinct enough:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:SR-npc-Farmer_02.jpg
3.Dunmer, here's where I see that you, like me, are driven be personal preference.
You choose to make Dunmer equal to imperials while making bretons equal to redguards, and your justification is the 1.00 scaling for dunmer.
Yet: In early games, just like the breton, dunmer were referred to as tall, unlike the bretons, they weren't shortened afterwords.
Secondly, as far as ancestry goes, Dunmer are direct descendants of chimer who were physically identical to aldmer.
So if bretons are tall because of aldmer DNA(Despite being 100% nedic in appearance), then why would you make dunmer, who are their direct descendants, and who combined have been taller than bretons, shorter?
For me, Dunmer being equal in strength to Imperials, despite being much leaner, works better with an increased height, besides that they have very high speed, in the real world, the fastest runners and men are much taller than average.
Add in their historical height description, and their superior, master race, looking down on other races attitude(Similar or worse to the altmer), I think the minor increase in height suits them better, and is far more justified than the height increase in bretons.
(Even if I did increase breton height, which I wouldn't completely discount, I'd still put them below the dunmer)
Orcs: Just like with the dunmer, this is mere personal preference. It is equally lore friendly to make Orcs taller than nords, if not moreso.(Since they are taller in Skyrim, the game that this mod is set in.)
This isn't just a matter of personal preference. It is ultimately more lore friendly to make Skyrim orcs taller than it is to make the Nords taller, hell, even orc women are taller than nord men in base Skyrim.(Which is why lore isn't the only thing to consider, as I do plan on shrinking that disparity and making them the same height)
The height difference is also less significant in morrowind than the orc to nord height difference is in Skyrim.. Percentage wise and in absolute numbers, weighting it more heavily towards orcs.
At the very least a real lore friendly version would make orcs only somewhat taller or at least equal in height. But again, it's all personal preference.
Khajiit:
Khajiit have been smaller than imperials and dunmer in every game. (Again, I weight the average between both genders.)
They have never been described as tall, and even have tall subspecies to contrast their smaller ones.
That along with their lightness and sneakyness fits well with their new height for me. Khajiit's head appearance doesn't figure into the equation, as it not the intended purpose of the mod.
I think the kitty folk are best a little smaller, there are "raht" version that are better suited for the large variants.
Ultimately, even though I contest a lot of your points, I appreciate the thought you put into it, and moreso the fact that you aim to change the values yourself.(A very easy task that few in the earlier days of this mod seemed willing.)
Ultimately, I think my version, besides the wood elves, is more consistent with the lore, stats, aesthetics, personality, character roles and combined height descriptions of the characters, I don't see the mod as a roadmap, as I think it stands against the scrutiny,(Again, woodelf females, 100% are just me choosing to use ESO lore when I never would anyway, it is just because I felt like >;-) ) but I'm totally cool with users using it that way. Hell, I'm open to people posting their own versions as mods with changed height values.
I will definitely factor some of your opinions in when/if I update again. But for the most part, I think my ratios stand, thanks for commenting and giving me the upportinity to outline why I chose the heights I chose, cheers man.
Special Edition version uploaded(Updated?/uploaded)
I use it myself.
(I don't play LE but the SE version.)
On description it says "Now compatible with XPMSE!"but the thing is XPMSE isnt compatible with nemesis so I am trying to find a middle ground. So I wonder if this still supports XPMS instead.
Isn't ragdoll related to weight though? I use the skeletons and heights as replacers in another mod, so weights should be vanilla still. :T
Racial Body Morphs + BHUMP = CTD on gender selection, which is a shame.
I love this mod but this comment, man I promise you farmers are definitely not scrawny or weak.