Steam and Bethesda remove paid modding from Skyrim Workshop
Valve and Bethesda have announced that they have removed the payment feature from Steam Workshop effective immediately. Refunds have been sent out to anyone who paid for a mod using the system.
Bethesda's blog piece originally defended the system and was then later updated. However, I think it's an amazingly good read. You may not agree with everything written within it, but it is well written and shares key insights in to Bethesda's thinking when they went in to this endeavour. Frankly, if they had written and released that blog piece when they'd first announced the paid workshop functionality then it would have helped to alleviate some of my fears. It's a shame that it wasn't done. I particularly appreciated their comments on DRM, which I feel might have been slightly pointed at me:
Excellent words. Thank you, Matt (or whoever wrote it).
I know many people will disagree with me, but I can't help but feel sorry for Bethesda. I understand this was their own doing. But in between all the drama of the past few days it's very easy to lose sight of the fact that this is the developer who released an amazing SDK for Morrowind, when they didn't have to, an amazing SDK for Oblivion, when they didn't have to, an amazing SDK for Fallout 3 (that worked with New Vegas), when they didn't have to, and an amazing SDK for Skyrim, when they didn't have to. In a gaming industry that was and is running further and further away from modding. We shouldn't have had reason to doubt them, but unfortunately a lack of good communication with the community at large prior to releasing the tools has completely bewildered the entire community and contributed in a big part to the resounding amount of resentment towards the new system.
Earlier on today I wrote another 2,500 words for a Q&A interview with Rock, Paper, Shotgun. I'm interested to see if they'll still print it considering it's now mostly a moot point, but it raised some interesting questions and answers which are directly related to how I think (or thought) this could have been handled a bit better to avoid what has become this rather terrible PR nightmare for Valve and Bethesda. If they're not planning on releasing it then I'll have a think as to whether it would be worth posting up as a concluding blog piece on the topic. Though it may be better not to beat the dead horse further and draw a line under this extremely damaging incident in the hope that we can move on from it quickly. Would you even like to read more of my banal twitterings? God knows I've waffled on way too much these past few days as it is.
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A moderator has closed this comment topic for the time beingClosing the topic since it's descended into nothing more than a futile, circular - and very personal - argument between some of the participants.
You really are living in another reality aren't you, you have absolutely no idea of what I am thinking or what I believe. At this point I am just going to continue reporting your posts that have become nothing more then personal attacks.
This is clearly a post designed simply to offend, throw personal insult and yet another example of the outrageous abuse us mod authors have been subjected too. Now people reading this can see at least one example of the unwarranted abuse thrown at us.
Abuse is NEVER justified, EVER. Theft is NEVER justifiable, EVER. Don't you dare try pass the buck and try to blame the mod authors involved for all this, they were not the ones flinging insults, death threats and stealing. I don't care what you think of my work, you are FAR overruled by not only the many people who did think my work was worth money and purchased it, but also the many people who got Bleakden Town not only to the top of Steam, but also on the Nexus Hot Files. I have NEVER released a low quality mod and public opinion backs that up. Neither have any of the mod authors involved, regardless of some pathetic amateur 'reviews' by people who clearly have no idea of modding and the limitations of the game and the CK. So why don't you tell me again what the 'public' thinks......
I never once said that I was lamenting the fact that I can no longer make money off pay for mods, so you are talking out of your butt there. I don't give a crap about the money, my issue was with the way a portion of the community so happily threw abuse and a community that protected the rights of it's modders suddenly felt free to advocate theft and piracy. That was unforgivable.
You think you are going to 'run me out of this community' just because you 'don't like what I did', well think again buddy. I have been here ten years, I spent thousands of my own money not only on making mods but also on providing a modding community for 7 years, you will never convince me that what I did was wrong. I have given and given to this community FAR more then you buddy, for FREE. You will never convince me that my work and knowledge is worth nothing, your opinion doesn't matter to me. I am not going anywhere regardless of your insults and vitriol. Bethesda asked me to be part of this (remember Bethesda, the people that made the game in the first place) and I accepted, something I will never apologize for, it was a fricken honor to be asked and I don't regret one moment of it. Also I always intended to keep releasing free mods with the occassional paid one, a fact that people overlook. But the fact is that everyone is entitled to compensation for their hard work, regardless of what trolls think.
I guess I should thank you, every time I feel like I want 'out' another vindictive, insulting user comes along to remind me of the above paragraph and spark the fight in me once again. lol
Oh and just for the record...my inbox says that the 'community' did not make its opinion crystal clear, only a few trolls did.
You were on your high horse trying to justify paid mods a month before it went live, and dismissed anyone who didn't agree with you as self entitled, trying to shame anyone who didn't agree with your selfish and greedy philosophy. I knew then and there you would be among the first to try to sell a mod, and I knew you would be among the most indignant whiners when paid modding was discontinued.
I get it. You have a high opinion of yourself. You think you're important. You think the modding community would come to a standstill without your continued support and contributions. While I certainly don't argue that said support and contributions would be missed, I promise you that we would manage with or without you. Not a single mod author is more important to this community than the mod users who download these mods. It's a symbiotic relationship that worked just fine until you got greedy. Like it or not, you helped damage that relationship. Now I'm not saying that you're totally to blame for all this, so you can start backspacing right now and don't even bother trying to spin it that way. But there's no denying that you were willfully complicit, and that you should have bloody well known better.
So you can keep screaming "EVERYONE'S WRONG BUT ME" at anyone who points out the errors of your hypocrisy and your hubris, and continue to trivialize and dismiss a movement that managed to 1). elevate a petition that received 133,000 signatures into the national spotlight, 2). lower the rating of a game over 10 points in less than 3 days on Steam, 3). received condemnation from nearly 100% of the modding community at large.
Or
You can take a good long look at yourself in the mirror, forget for a minute that you consider yourself one of the greatest mod authors in the hobby, open your eyes and accept that the community at large doesn't agree with your philosophy, and realize that you acting like a spoiled brat is only widening the rift between authors and users.
I'm not questioning your talent, nor am I questioning your creativity. Neither do I begrudge mod users who continue to support you. It's not for me to criticize that support.
But you have lost my support. You have lost my praise. You have lost my endorsements. And you have lost my trust. Of course, I'm under no illusions that you care about any of that (unless it's convenient for you to prove how important you are). All you care about is money.
It's not the modding community's fault you wasted so much time and money on mods, and it's unfortunate you think it's a waste because you didn't get reimbursed. It's not the modding community's fault that you were conned into participating in what was obviously a horrible idea, and it's not the modding community's fault that you failed to take the advice of dozens of members of that community who made it perfectly clear a month prior that they would not support it, nor would they pay one red cent for paid mods. It's not the modding community's fault that your starry-eyed dreams and fantasies of making a living off changing values in Bethesda's Creation Kit did not pan out. And it's most certainly not the modding community's fault that you chose to throw a temper tantrum because it failed to become a reality.
But don't try to blame mod users for your new-found infamy. You did that yourself.
I owe you nothing.
1. A national spotlight on...wait for it...People Want Free Stuff.
2. Lowered a rating?!HAHAHAHA
3. How does that work if your movement received condemnation from 100% of the community at large if you are also a member of that community?You hate yourself?
Please continue posting.You might yet make it as a comedian.Seinfield like even.
I never once called people who didn't agree with paid mods 'entitled' and I certainly never tried to 'shame' people, that is just ridiculous I suggest you reread my posts from that thread.
What part of....
...led you to that 'logical' conclusion.
Fine. *shrug* If this insulting attitude and personal insults are what constitutes your 'support' then I have gained, not lost.
I owe you even less and care even less then that for your 'opinion' and personal insults.
You've shown your true colors. And again, that's entirely on you, and you're the one who has to live with it.
Granted, I'm fully aware that you'll live with it just fine. That's what makes it so utterly reprehensible and unredeeming; you legitimately believe in your heart of hearts that you're the righteous martyr in all this, and that you'll be remembered as a pioneering hero in the annals of modding history.
You're not. And you won't.
Pirates are without a doubt the most ignorant and stupid people. They congratulate themselves on pirating mods and are so ignorant that they have no comprehension that people are not going to continue making and uploading mods for others if their mods are being stolen. Who would? So the pirates deprive everyone of the work those modders would have released. Pure stupidity at it's best. No wonder so many talented modders only share mods behind the scenes to friends.
Stop this nonsense about 'greedy modders'. These people have been releasing their hard work for free for years. Thousands of hours of hard work. It boggles the mind when people who contribute nothing and do nothing but take have the sheer audacity and pure arrogance to call others who have given so much for free and now ask just a little in return.....'greedy'. Just incredible, I loose faith in humanity every time I see this selfish entitlement of others who believe that others should give and never receive anything in return.
The customer is not 'always right when they bought something', that misconception has been done away with for years.
Shezrie's Mods
Piracy represent a will to "counter" the main system/s, by violently opposing the actual policies, to show you're point. To make it short : piracy is violent revolutionism. By the way : terrorrism is a way of piracy, and revolutionist during WW2 where kind of pirates. Obviously, I'm not defending here the "pro-violence" dudes, but I felt the importance to replace words in their context.
What people nowadays call piracy is mostly about a selfish attitude because it's easy to access, rules and federationism isn't possible because the movement is too big. And yes : good old "rhum pirates" had rules and a way of federationism, through non exaustiv hierarchy.
But still, why do people nowadays are pirating ? Because they don't agree with the actual system. Why is it so hugelly spread ? Because the market treating it as "need to eradicate criminals" and not "we should maybe try to understand why it is so virulent".
For the obligatory payment thing. This has been very badly handled by steam and bethesda, since the communication about it was so bad. They didn't even tried to fit it in the community, just tried to force the customers of mods to instantly change their ways of doing.
That was violent, and badly introduced, for what it broke nearly spontaniously. That was so badly done that It even socialy damaged the moding comunity...
So yes : modders should be congratulated for their hard work, but a system is already partially working with the donations. And if they want more fundings, there are more better systems for doing so, than the way bethesda and steam did ; without consulting anyone except the market itself. Crowdfunding, sensibilisation to moders' work, selling goodies, and maybe one day a moding market ; as it has just been tried : but without forcing people to change their vision of something they love.
And most of all : with the system steam tried, there were lots of ways for "baddies", to trick people with it.
And yes : that is a fact, customers are always right when they bought something. I'de even say : customers make the market.
And if you think most people are thinking this way : you're wrong. I'm sometimes working as a shop assistant, and lots of them are thinking the opposite way : "I'm a customer, so I must be this or that way"...
You can argue what you want, without customers there is no market. But this doesn't means you have to be a dick as a customer.
P.S : yes, sorry for my approximated english, I'm French... but doing my best. ^^"
We will have to agree to disagree then. Stealing someone elses work will never be acceptable and there is never a valid excuse for theft.
Piracy is not a 'revolution' against the system, it is people who cannot/will not pay for other peoples hard work, yet consider themselves entitled to it for free. It is theft, illegal, immoral, disrespectful and rude and selfish. It boils down to people just don't want to pay....so they steal.
No, the introduced pay mods scheme was not 'violently' done. The only violent thing that went on was the disgusting violence and abuse against not only the companies, but also the individual modders involved. There is no justification ever for demanding on mass that people 'commit suicide' or threatening to track them down, kill them and their family and rape their corpse. No justification for the most vile abuse and hatred, and also finding and releasing peoples personal information online so that the abuse could be taken further then the internet No justification EVER for that and no excuse period.
No one 'forced' the community to do anything, it was always an offered option to buy or sell mods. You couldn't take mods down and resell them, Steam forbid that, free mods were not going anywhere. Only new mods or updated mods could be sold. People were entitled to disagree with paid for mods, but the backlash was unwarranted, incredibly unreasonable and not even done by the majority of the TES community at all. The majority of the upheaval and abuse was thrown by users from various websites that don't give a damn about mods or TES, they incite riot of the 'lulz'.
Yes communication could have been better, but really I don't think that would have actually made any difference at all. People were out for riot because they just don't want to pay. What should have happened was a far more calm, mature and less offensive approach to disagreeing with the situation if indeed the majority of the community did disagree.
No the customer is not always right. I worked over ten years in customer service and you learn that you cannot please everyone, it is impossible. Many dissatisfied customers are completely unreasonable. But the point is that those trolls that hurled abuse and crap were never customers and were never going to be customers, ever. We gain nothing from those people downloading our mods, except frequently abuse, so really their opinion actually means nothing.
The only social damage done to this community is the very clear and plain message sent out to modders about exactly how much value the public actually puts on modders and mods, the learning and knowledge required to mod as well as the hundreds, often thousands of hours of hard work that goes into making mods. When push came to shove and users were asked to give something beyond the odd endorsement and nice comment in order to get a mod ....the majority flat out didn't want to, many to the point of making death threats. But they all still happily consume all our work, often without so much as a thank you.
Add to that the point when it became not only okay but encouraged and applauded to pirate our mods. This community has ALWAYS stood against piracy and rallied and fought to protect our modders rights regarding their hard work for the ten years I have been here. This is where the community let it's own down the hardest, not just the public, other modders who felt free to condone theft of mods, yet stood up expecting us all to rally and protect their free mods in the recent 450 mods theft by some russian guy. Trust has been lost and it is not Steam or Bethesda's fault or pay for mods fault. It was the unnecessary, disgusting behavior exhibited by a large portion of this community, sorry but that is just a fact.
I have no doubt that what will come out of this and I know for a fact already has, is that modders have left, modders have got the 'message' and are now just distributing mods to friends. This whole thing was a slap it the face, kick in the balls and punch in the gut of people who have given so freely of their time, knowledge and hard work for years, by not only the public but also other modders. I am disgusted, revolted and angry.
Now that the trolls have moved onto the next shiny thing the real TES community is finally coming out of hiding. Those that do support and appreciate the value of someone elses time and effort. Those that tried to speak up but were subjected to disgusting abuse. The part of the community that is actually reasonable and even if they disagree would never resort to prepubescent temper tantrums.
There and I told myself that I would not get involved in any of these discussions. I guess I am still angry and hurt by what was a shocking display of entitlement and violence. I will not be reading or replying to this thread further, I have had enough of peoples 'opinions' to last me a life time and I see no reason to have to 'defend' myself even more. I don't mean to offend anyone and never did. I am trying to focus on the kind words that many have sent me because after ten years as part of this community I don't want to leave or feel that I cannot still release my work....but sometimes it is hard, I won't deny that.
The customer doesn't have to use or endorse your products, either.
At the end of the day, pirates didn't cause this rift of ill will between mod authors and mod users. You did.
It would have been one thing if you would have put out a mod that was worth paying for. But you didn't. None of you did. No matter how many hundreds of hours you put into a mod, if the quality isn't there, then you simply cannot justify putting a price tag on it.
You are NOT entitled to money just because you spend a lot of time on mods. No one has ever forced you to make them. You created them on your own time at your own expense. It's NOT the modding community's obligation to reimburse you. If endorsements, praise and gratitude aren't enough for you, then you're probably involved in the wrong amateur hobby, and if you really want to take your ball and go home, then by all means, do so. You've already done enough damage to this community.
Fundamentally, the pirates aren't the bad guys. The mod users who rallied against paid modding aren't the bad guys. The Youtube reviewers aren't the bad guys. At this point, the only bad guys in this matter are the mod authors who are still acting like petulant children because they didn't get their way, and who continue to lecture the community on why we should have paid for early access, stolen assets, and/or just plain terrible mods, all without quality control, and without the assurance that the mods would improve or continue to function.
Like it or not, the modding community has made its opinion on this matter crystal clear, and if you are unwilling and/or unable to accept that and move on, then you're doing the community as well as yourself a gross disservice.
Your English may not be great, but your points are. :} Thank you.
Mod authors don't deserve to get paid at all. It's a privilege when developers release mod or map tools. And it's nice when developers and publishers set it up so modders can get rewarded for the content they contribute.
But it's not like anyone's stopping you from putting your mod on your own site and charging for it or e-begging for donations (get a job). If you're so set on making money, why not make some indie game? I mean, Unreal Engine is free. You could even put crafting, zombies, and building in it and make it early access on Steam because there aren't enough of those.
Be glad you can even mod these games. I remember when Call of Duty was synonymous with a great modding community with new content and mods every week. But now it's some lousy "AAA" rushed and over-priced title with the rest of the game sold in DLC installments of 15 bucks a pop.
Also, Steam taking 75% isn't that bad. They're providing hosting for your content and providing the media for you to profit from your content. You want to put your mods on your own site and sell them? You have to buy a domain and hosting, develop that website with a members area and at least link paypal into it.
Thankfully most people in this community are a little more open minded. Modders deserve nothing?
Go make it yourself!
modder spend many hour of their time to make some mod, they make it because they like it and they want their mod to be in game. then its up to them if they want to share or not. what make mod great because when they first create it, its not about profit but its about passion and love. and they listen to everyone play their mod for bug and error.
so instead you say in a disrespect way, better say it in a manner way. when you say "dont deserve" its way to disrespectful for someone spent time to make something for free.
Heres Why:
GOOD BYE free mods that require Skyui (for those who can no afford to throw money on may work mods.
crap mods will be on the workshop for way too much money and there is no real way to know that they will work and you only had 24hrs to get the refund..
Last but not least hello free mods that SPAM you to buy the full verisons so all the free community would of been left with is a handfull of non skyui good mods and crappy spam mods.
Mod authors deserve to get paid yes but not in this way as its going to hurt communitys like this one and just bring more priracy.
This. This is _exactly_ where the previous system was headed.
Would you say that very same thing to a doctor who is passionate about their work? Do you think just because they're paid that not all of them have a desire to make people feel better? That they're only in it for the money? What about the person who became a nurse because as a child they had a family member who was sick & wanted to make things right? Now that they're getting paid for healing would you call them selfish?
This can be applied to many other hobbies where people are paid for doing what they love. Other examples are car modding, fish-keeping (esp Salties/SW), house improvement/reselling, etc.
Money moves the world. Imagine your favourite modders out there not having to get a job they loathe, but instead put 100% of their 9-5 (and more) into making the very mods you love. They get paid, can buy healthy(ier) meals, maybe a gym membership (or new sneakers) to offset all that sitting time, maybe even upgrades to their computer/microphone/etc so that they can bring in better quality mods in the future.
A lot of folks seem to think modders making money are going to buy yachts & drop quality of their mods. Some will, and more reputable ones will take their place. Some want to get paid for their passion. Others like giving away their time & money. That's fine. But that's their personal choice.
I want to add, I don't think Valve/Bethesda did this right. They should never have messed with an already old game in an established modding community. They should have done this with a new game & let us get our feet wet (as modders & tryers) without fear of losing our beloved mods from drama and re-selling. They failed, they were burned in the process, but they'll try again.
Like every other paid hobby, paid-for-mods are inevitable & it's up to us to form some solid guidelines for them of what we will & will not allow - as a whole community of paid-for and freebie modders.
Just my $0.02. Hopping out.