Madness Helmet historical prototype

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GardenScarecrow

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As it would appear, the Madness Helmet from the Shivering Isles DLC could've been greatly inspired by this helmet belonging to a Russian/Turkic armor set. The exact time period and country of origin I couldn't find on the net yet. If you have a good guess, or better yet, a definitive answer - feel free to share it.

28 comments

  1. manhunter2
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    This might sound wild but the armor itself did appear in a movie, the 2003 Disney movie called Haunted Mansion.


    https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/hauntedmasnion/images/4/47/02_%281%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150627230240

    The armor is shown in a side view as the armor on as the closest (foreground? if that's the correct term) to the right.
    1. GardenScarecrow
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      Great find! Yup, in the foreground alright.
    2. manhunter2
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      I will say, even if it's not exactly historical that the only actual source was a Disney movie that came out back in 2003, it does look like a nice suit of armor. Better style than some fantasy armor designs I seen.

      Also the company behind the armor itself in what kind of armors they made for Hollywood.
      https://newsite.globaleffects.com/suits-amors/
      One of the images they have is an armor with a similar looking cuirass that was used in Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian.

      https://globaleffects.com/GEI_Site/C_b20_frameset.html
      They also noted in their armor rentals the helmet and body armor in the pic you posted as "Russian" under the Renaissance period. If I'm to guess, this armor probably didn't exist IRL in Russia or any neighboring lands. At least not like the image so much as IRL pieces that would of inspired what Global Effects made. That said, it does look nice and I myself am not familiar with armor beyond a basic in knowing what a brigandine and gambeson is thanks to games that actually try to make an accurate looking brigandine rather than taking a leather jacket and slapping metal squares with gaps in between.
    3. GardenScarecrow
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      Well, even though it might not have existed in history, it is still a pretty good rendition of the so-called "mirror armor" (зерцальный доспех). Wish this type was used more in fantasy settings. It's got a nice variety of plate composition and ornament, depending on region and period.
    4. manhunter2
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      Indeed. Most I seen of it as fantasy armor was Dragon's Dogma 2 as an end-game body armor. Granted the one thing to make it look like mirror plate was how you had that circular disc over a sort of body armor. I'd link the image but the one image from Reddit doesn't do it much justice in how it looks though from having played that game to the end, I could say it's one of the few to have something similar to mirror armor in a fantasy setting
      https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fbest-outfit-for-my-warrior-warfarer-arisen-v0-6e4t01hhgqtc1.png%3Fwidth%3D851%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D2d94c0adf641389980c61620de464348b703ac64

      Will also say in regards to fantasy settings, actual brigandines need more love.
    5. GardenScarecrow
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      Oh, absolutely. Brigandines with splint limb protection should appear more often, as well as lamellars. Besides, brigandines could be very colorful as well.

      Wouldn't also hurt to have more, should I say, cheaper armors for simple grunts, like gambesons with arm links or boiled leather armor, whuch would be an improvement over the more stereotypical fantasy leather.
    6. manhunter2
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      Definitely on lamellars. Dragon's Dogma and Mount & Blade made me fall in love with them with. Granted the former is more of just a sort of vest or jacket though DD's charm was in mix and matching various armor pieces if your class allowed it, such as a gambseon which just acts as chest clothing.
      https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonsdogma/images/9/93/Lamellar_Jacket.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130127035154

      Not much a fan of leather armor save what Dark Souls 1 did but gambesons honestly deserve love as a stand alone armor and not just something worn underneath plate in some armor set you'd see in other games. Just seeing the padding in Elden Ring's Lionel set and Skyrim's steel plate and nordic carved armor were one of the things to sell me on an other complete fantasy armor sets.
      https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Elden-Ring/lionel_s_armor_altered_armor_pieces_comparison.png
      https://images.uesp.net/8/82/SR-item-Nordic_Carved_Armor_Male.jpg
      Though Elden Ring gets an extra point because foot soldier enemies do drop gambeson and helmets befitting them based on which region you are in. I will say as an extra note, seeing the cuirass of armors like those of the winged hussars which according to some sources is called anima or laminar makes me wish that was a thing in the correct layout of "upper lame overlapped by lower" rather than the other way fantasy armor would normally do.
    7. GardenScarecrow
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      Regarding gambesons, one of my favourite games that includes them is Exanima. It's got quite an array of armours, which can be layered. Gambeson + maille + padded coat + breastplate. Of course, it's ill-advised to put on all of armor pieces like that, since it doesn't do good for encumbrance.
      I wish it had standalone placards and gorgets, though, those would combine well with gambesons and brigandines.
    8. manhunter2
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      My man, you deserve an endorsement just for mentioning Exanima. Never had there been a game where every encounter was deadly while going through a dungeon that felt like both a lived in a place and something to be scared off. Not to mention combat looking more grounded than the likes of other games such as Skyrim, Witcher, and Dark Souls.

      And you are right with its armors. Do wish some games did plackarts and gorgets as a separate thing just because the fashion souls/armor enjoyer in me could imagine what sort of combos on could make, even if it looked like a mess or impractical but at least a dude with a gambeson covered by a plackart is a more refreshing impractical than chainmail bikinis and tanky fantasy armor that has no grace for an armored guy to do jumping jacks and a cartwheel. It is ironic that one popular adult bikini armor mod for Skyrim actually offered gorgets which is also a painful reminder in how later games after Oblivion could of did separate armor pieces like Daggerfall and Morrowind did.


      Also as one other side note: plated chain deserves some love as well, such as this beauty from the Philippines which I'll admit in wanting to shill due to being half Filipino and because I like the look of it..
      https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moro-R%C3%BCstung#/media/Datei:Coat_of_mail_with_horn_plates,_Philippines_(Moro_people),_1800s_-_Higgins_Armory_Museum_-_DSC05569.JPG

      At the very least in plated chain, Oblivion does give it some justice.
    9. GardenScarecrow
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      Man, that is a gorgeous example of "mirror armor"/plated maille. I can't understand for the love of my life why more games don't use these or other Eastern/Asian armor types. They're missing out on a lot of cool designs in favour of generics.
    10. manhunter2
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      As someone Filipino by one side of the family though not from Mindanao where the chainmail would be from, the plated chain indeed is beautiful. Also will say for someone whose heritage stretches to the Philippines, Asiatic blades that aren't katanas deserve more love especially when you consider the weapons from places like the Philippines. Again excuse me if it sounds like I'm shilling someone's product but honestly, weapons from places that don't get a lot of love and attention deserve some light.
      https://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/DSC_4279.jpg
      https://www.traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PanayTenegre2-510x339.jpg
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Kampilan_moro_sword_laminated_blade.jpg
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Mindanao_moro_panabas_1.JPG
      https://i.imgur.com/oyhcgqw.jpg


      No joke, I wouldn't mind if someone dumped a bunch of Filipino blades in a fantasy world and elves or orcs realize one particular group of humans don't make blades like the generic western European fantasy humans as they could cleave both flesh and foliage. Even more so with how these weapons weren't universal but could end up being unique to certain islands or island regions like the axe itself being used by igorot peoples.
    11. GardenScarecrow
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      Those do look pretty interesting. And Igorot axe I've seen tested by Skallagrim — fearsome weapon, I must say.

      Indeed, Asian weapons sometimes underrepresented because of katana's popularity. I rarely see dao, for example,not to mention jian, dadao or tang dao. They aren't as exotic or fantastic in looks as Filipino weapons, but they too wouldn't be out of place in medieval fantasy.
    12. manhunter2
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      Yeh. Even funnier with the dao from what I'll never forget:
      WW2 Japanese swords and Chinese daos were made from the same steel as train tracks or so one source said. The daos basically were a middle finger to the Japanese officer swords in not breaking.

      Chinese weapons do deserve more love and spotlight outside of just being in a game like Soul Calibur and Wo Long and Black Myth Wukong.
    13. GardenScarecrow
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      Absolutely! Although, I do wonder how would one place them within TES universe, if, say, they were making a lore-friendly mod.

      I wonder if they could be attributed to the Dunmer or Altmer, looking at how they used to have a somewhat Asian vibe to them in older games. Or maybe even Orcimer, given their obviously samurai-inspired armor in Morrowind.
    14. manhunter2
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      My guess is make Chinese weapons go to the Ka' Po Tun from Akavir. Granted my only source was remembering about reading the Akaviri races and someone making a guess that if the Tsaesci are Japanese because katanas, the Ka' Po Tun would be the Chinese because a reverence to dragons. Some lore implication: failed expeditions in Akavir had some returning Imperial Legion remnants bring back various Akaviri weapons that were used as back ups which would include a Ka' Po Tun sword that looks like a dadao or jian. Alternatively, you'd have some Tsaesci warriors bring these weapons out as sort of war trophies when they came to Tamriel to rule under the Akaviri Potentate's rule.

      Granted, the ones you mentioned, that would also be fitting. Especially if Dunmer or Orsimer had some encounter Akaviri culture and some aspect from the weapons left an influence though I felt the Ashlanders could feel more like Mongols in a sense due to living in yurts and leaders having "khan" as a title even though it's a suffix such as "gulakhan" and "ashkhan" that they could of wielded some weapon that's Mongol inspired like the composite bow. Ironically the MMO, even though I have no interest in MMO's, gave orcs some Mongol or Chinese style clothing.
      https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Costumes/Orc


      The alternative I could think of now that the MMO is a thing is the Khajiit due to some South or Southeast Asian influence in the architecture.
      https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-concept-Khajiiti_Structures.jpg
      Not to mention Senchal having a fish curry dish according to the MMO. Perhaps the Khajiit could be given some Asian style blades though more of South or Southeast Asian style. I, in all my bias for my heritage, for one wouldn't mind the cat people in the jungle region of Elseweyr wielding a panabas or kampilan on bandits or adventurers. And much as I don't care for whatever ESO does to the series, I do like the fact they add in a bunch of different recipes that ironically made me wish these dishes did appear in the games. Even real life ones like pork fried rice, borscht, or a patty melt (granted, the fried rice is tied to Akavir so perhaps Chinese weapons could go to them. Meanwhile the melt goes to the Nords)
      https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Food_Recipes


      Also as a side note: Morrowind's Orcish armor is the best. Oblivion's and Skyrim's can't compare. Same with glass armor while I'm at it since the look of glass in morrowind really made plate armor not just be restricted to heavy on top of looking nicer than what the successors had, caveat though Oblivion's female glass armor looked better than the male version that I wish someone made a male version though you can thank Dark Soul's 2 for that in "upper part of a cuirass worn over chainmail" and Witcher 3 by extension. Even though I'm not big on Witcher 3, I liked how ursine armor looked in reminding me of DS 2's sunken knight armor not to mention feline school armor literally being brigandine.
    15. GardenScarecrow
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      Yeah, Orcish armor peaked in Morrowind. I don't hate its Oblivion iteration, but it could be much better. Having it being lamellar is a good touch, but perhaps it could be more like Chinese Pagoda lamellar suit.

      Regarding glass armor in Oblivion, I kind of like male version more, exactly because it has more plates. While partial plate over maille, like on female variant, can work, I just don't feel like exposing torso, even with maille, is a good idea.

      But you know what? Perhaps making it the "mirror armor"/Eastern plated mail we discussed earlier could be a good compromise. Not overly armored, yet isn't exposing a lot of weak spots.

      On the matter of Khajiit, could it be possible for them to have a more Persian/Indian lean, maybe in select clans? In those regions armor and weapons too have interesting examples.
    16. manhunter2
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      With Oblivion's glass, I never liked it as light armor. I always preferred amber armor a lot more even though the hole near the near was hilariously impractical and the amber helmet had those horns. I wouldn't mind if the orientation of the glass lames was reversed to being like what is seen on Polish hussar armor. Much as it's just nitpicking, I just feel the way fantasy normally does cuirass lames would just be not as flexible as the way it would actually go in real life.

      Plus it's as I said with the female variant, it's pretty much because it reminded me of Dark Souls 2 and sunken knight was one of the times I ended up liking a mostly chainmail armor set in a game where most armors look like they leaned more on fantasy. Not to mention armor peaking in Dark Souls 3 with the default knight armor. That said, the mirrored armor could work, even if the stylization had that mirror plate be more of a plackart. I simply wouldn't mind seeing how mirror armor would go in being stylized just to see what an artist would come up with, especially after how Dragon's Dogma 2 had that as an end game set that gave it western plate armor pauldrons that could cover the armpit sans the metal fins.

      Also I found someone posting all the mirror armor style armors DD2 had. Now you can see what I mean with the game in how it does mirror armor.
      https://youtu.be/-TAw84DoKFw?si=SvFKr6boRAIGgStn&t=68
      https://youtu.be/-TAw84DoKFw?si=yFY-PDMRoqMqeZiC&t=23

      As for the Khajiit, it's funny you mention Persian/Indian. Back when TES started with Arena, the races all had their names made in a generator with prefixes and suffixes.
      https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit_Names#Arena
      Male khajiits gotten names like "Mohammed" and "Omar." First game in the series so of course it didn't have all the things we have in later games but it is funny seeing how the first game would give you something like a wood elf named "Legoman Shadyshade" or a high elf with the name of "Saruman." Or even an Argonian with name like "Claudios Augustus." Greek or Roman sounding names for the lizard folk back in the first game.
    17. GardenScarecrow
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      You know, one of those DD2 armors (second link) reminded me of a little experiment I did during the Inktober/Darktober drawing challenge, namely combining western parts (gorget, placard, pauldrons, splint cuisses) with lamellar parts (vest, spaulders). I'm not sure how much sense it would make practically and I haven't yet seen live examples of it.

      In regards to the possibility of arranging glass plates/lames akin to a Polish cuirass (in this case it'll be plates, I guess), I think it would be drawing into the territory of Anima armor, which is kinda what Ebony cuirass tries to do, albeit with far fewer plates.
      Personally, I think that the Glass set, or at least the cuirass should be composed more like this armor you've sent earlier.
    18. manhunter2
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      For lamellar mixed with western parts, I'd imagine it could work after one knows what could go with which. Wouldn't mind seeing it.

      And yes, glass armor based off the Moro chainmail would be nice, that or the anima style like ebony has albeit stylized to fit with the upper cuirass in some way.

      All that said though, I should stop since my comments are making the page longer than it should be. Thank you for all the talk on armor. It's nice to come across someone that speaks about it and the styles even though I'm not one that's deeper into it the further terms but as one who likes the styles that exist and how certain styles end up overlooked or misnamed or misinterpreted.
    19. GardenScarecrow
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      Haha, yeah, I guess we've got a bit carried away here. Thank you too for the talk, it's been quite nice.
    20. Axul
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      Вот, честно, эта ваша моррошиндовая орочья броня - хуйня говны, откровенная. Будто бы её моделил виабушник варкрафтоёб.
      Зерцало бы какое - гораздо интересней.

      Про Скайрим, пожалуй, промолчу - там вообще какая-то шляпа а-ля "Пластилин Дудец". Лучшие кузнецы Нирна, вроде, по лору. А сет - чисто бомжи.
    21. GardenScarecrow
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      Насчёт Моррошиндской не соглашусь, с вашего позволения. Да, есть некоторая чрезмерная японщина, но я не скажу, что это выглядит прямо отвратно. Хотя, это вопрос вкусовщины, безусловно.
      А касаемо зерцальной - я бы её, наверное, бахнул Редгардам или Хаджитам, например.

      Вот в Скуриме действительно нагородили что-то весьма и весьма непонятное (да что там, почти каждый ванильный сет в Скуриме это страшная несусветица). Особо меня удивляют заявления, что в Скайриме у орков "монгольский" стиль. Хороший вопрос, где там хоть что-нибудь монгольское...
  2. sas647
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    I couldn't find the source from reverse image searching but from what I can tell this looks it could be from anywhere around the 11th to 13th century eastern Europe region
    1. manhunter2
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      I know I left it as a response to OP noting I made a good find but as far as I seen, it's at least a creation of a special effects studio. One that's made armors and the like for various movies like Bram Stokers Dracula and Disney's Haunted Mansion.
  3. ElderScrollsFan001
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    I knew I recognized that helmet design I just never could place it. Thanks for posting this.
    1. ElderScrollsFan001
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      The Sword of the Crusader from KOTN is based on the crusader sword from the movie Kingdom of Heaven.
    2. GardenScarecrow
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      Funnily enough, a week ago or so I used that very armor photo as a reference for some drawings. So I almost immediately recognised the helmet once I stumbled upon Madness Armor.

      And thanks for sharing that piece of info about KOTN, too.
  4. spyrowarner
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    That's pretty cool, dude. First endorsement from me. 👍