For anyone wondering why I've made so many NPCs respawn, it is because I want a more lively wasteland with more to do and fight. I always oppose the Legion and think of them as a large army that can readily replace its fallen fighters. I know that may not appeal to everyone, especially with such a large presence respawning after defeating them at Hoover Dam (if that's the route you choose), but it is the one that suits my play style.
I have started to use FNVEdit to clean my mods as well thanks to KarmaPowered! I am also open to suggestions to other mods, fixes, and edits but be aware that I have no scripting talent or experience.
Mod Updates: - Note: Any time I update the mod I'll try to remember to update this post with any areas that were changed so you can quickly see what changed. - v1.1: Legion Forward Camp Gamma, (1) Overall NPC Change
Would there happen to be a patch available for this mod and FPGE (Functional Post-Game Ending)? The mod sounds great, but it would be annoying to still be encountering Legionaries even after they were supposed to have been driven out of the Mojave.
Noticed that you do not have the "master files" for your plugin in the recommended load order. (Please see 'Vanilla Load Order' section of the wiki "FNV General Mod Use Advice" article.) This means people have to "sort master files (current load order)" using FNVEdit to avoid conflicts. Just one of those things that helps make your mod look more professional.
I found one tiny conflict with AWOP. In WastelandNV cell (-9.24) AWOP adds a new door, and FR has NavMesh edits that remove the door's connection to the NavMesh. All I had to do to create a patch is open both mods in the GECK, open that cell, and finalize the NavMesh again.
General Issues with Faction Reloaded (FR) I found other places where FR deletes NavMeshes, which is a major NO-NO, but YUP and AWOP (the only other mods I have so far that could conflict) don't edits them. So it's not a problem for me.
It has a lot of ITMs and deleted items FNVEdit can easily fix, along with the sorted masters problem reported by dubiousintent below.
Sorry for the late reply, been super busy with work. Other than the order of the masters (which I will get around to fixing), are there any navmesh issues or anything that I have done that needs fixed?
Thanks for this mod, and I look forward to your future modding endeavors! As for one area I think you missed, whenever fast traveling to Ripper & Sledge's Office you spawn literally inside the walls of the building forcing you to tcl your way out. Its been a while since I've played any of the reloaded mods, but from what I remember about the raider reload, it's buggy as hell and you'd probably find quite a bit of mistakes in it.
I had no idea! I will certainly check that area out and see what I can find. I haven't personally completed the game with this mod or explored every location, so I knew there would be stuff I haven't found.
Nice, I'm about to give FNV another run and am still in the process of installing my "more lively wastelands" plugins.
Lively desert, Mojave Wildlife, Mojave raiders, The Living desert and of course AWOP would be on the top of the list. I was also thinking of adding "Factions reloaded", so your fixes (and even additions) are most welcome. Do you think it would be too much "livelyness" ?
I especially like how thoroughly you document your changes. As long as the mod is clean in FNVEdit, and doesn't clog the old engine with endless script loops or bugged NPC AIs, I'm a happy camper. No suggestion yet, but I may come back with some later.
Thank you very much for the mod.
EDIT : A couple of ITM that appear in FNVEdit, but no UDR, so that's a good sign for a clean mod!
Of the mods you have listed I think I only have AWOP loaded, I'll certainly have to check the others out. The more lively my wasteland, the better. As long as it's not constant battle and all makes sense to be there.
What does ITM and UDR mean? If an ITM is an issue and I created it, I can look into fixing it. I appreciate the comment and compliment!
I agree with your vision, which is why I also checked your mod out. I don't want the Mojave to be a constant battlefield either, that would be the other extreme of boring (the first one being there is mostly nothing to do or see, as in vanilla).
About ITMs, they're duplicates from master files inside ESPs. They can be harmful if you want to "enhance" something from the base game or another mod, for example a weapon or an NPC, and you have several conflicts :
Spoiler:
Show
- (Base FNV game) Trudy has a white shirt and a 9mm - (mod 1) replaces Trudy's shirt with a red one and gives her a shotgun instead - (mod2) replaces Trudy's stats and voice, but carries along ITMs which come as the white shirt and the 9mm from the base game
Optimally, you want mod2 to contain only the relevant changes : the change of stats and voice, not the ITMs, so that it respects the changes of mod1 : the red shirt and the new shotgun.
You can clean such mods with FNVEdit. Here is a quick tutorial that explains the process with Skyrim (but it's similar for FNV).
About UDRs, they're undeleted deleted references. Basically, if in the above configation of base game + mod1 + mod2 :
Spoiler:
Show
- (Base FNV game) Trudy has a white shirt and a 9mm, and walks to a room with a navmesh - (mod 1) replaces Trudy's shirt with a red one and gives her a shotgun instead, deletes the existing room/navmesh and has her standing still - (mod2) replaces Trudy's stats and voice, but carries along ITMs which come as the white shirt and the 9mm from the base game, and has her again walking to the room/navmesh (which no longer exists!)
that would be very bad, since Trudy in the modded game would never be able to find the room/navmesh. This can crash your game, which is why one needs to again call FNVEdit to the rescue.
Here is a much more thorough STEP guide, which has it all.
As I said, no ITMs and UDRs are the sign of clean mods. Barring some rare cases (restoring "uncut" content, for example), It can never hurt to clean a mod, and it's best done by the mod author themselves since they know best what exactly should be in their mods.
Thank you very much for your response and the examples/details. I'll definitely be checking the guide, tutorial, and FNVEdit. Would you recommend cleaning it as I go along with each update, or wait until I'm finished with it?
The above shouldn't be a chore to you, so please proceed what you feel comfortable with.
I think it's good practice to do it once before each release, since it also shows you the redundant and useless stuff you could avoid adding in the first place (it's not you, of course, but the toolset). The one thing to watch out for is if you delete stuff belonging to master files (typically vanilla), and not "undelete" with FNVEdit, because such issues can potentially lead to crashes.
With experience you'll be very efficient with mod cleaning, and players with a hundred of conflicting mods in their lists will be grateful for it. You may also get the reputation over time for releasing such "cleaner" mods, which is another bonus.
In any case, thank you in for taking my request in consideration.
I updated the mod and used FNVEdit to clean it as well. I can't say I completely understand everything that was done by FNVEdit, but I'll definitely be trying to learn more about it. It didn't look like there were any large issues, but there were enough that I'm glad you told me about it.
Since you're the only person commenting, could you let me know what you think of the changes to Legion Forward Camp Gamma after the next time you visit it?
To my knowledge, the only times that ITM are justified are for "Uncut" mods, which may want to restore vanilla content that they need to function. Mod authors will probably warn you in such cases too.
For all other cases, any mod should work *exactly* the same before and after the cleaning if you follow the proper procedure. The engine doesn't need redundant records to work as intended. The only difference is that mods loading before your own could have issues if you (unwillingly) restore vanilla values that they modified, so cleaning is GOOD (tm) and getting accustomed with FNVEdit even more useful.
In any case, I'm still in the process of rebuilding my new mod setup but getting close to the end (building my LOD and fine-tuning my character custom race). I'll test it in game once I have the chance, and report back if I find any issues.
I am lost as to why there were still 2 ITMs. I finished making my changes in the GECK and saved the mod. Then I immediately opened FNVEdit 4.0.1, followed the quick tutorial that you linked, saved it and uploaded it.
I never thought about cleaning the mods that I've obtained from others. You're by far the most helpful person I've met or seen on here, and I really appreciate it.
I didn't want to "scare" you with xEdit, because for some reason people shy away from it for FNV while it is routinely used for all other Bethesda games. The game will still run "fine" if you leave ITM in, but it may not run "as intended", especially in heavily modded games.
EVE will overwrite AWOS, and AWOS will overwrite PN, and PN will overwrite YUP : it runs, with some morsels of each mod here and there, but is it really the *optimal* way to run the game, when you can have EVE texturing goodness AND AWOS sound goodness AND PN weapon tweaks/overlays AND YUP fixes all at once ?
Even then, it's the UDR that really *need* to be cleaned. There is no way around it, because game crashes will happen otherwise sooner or later. My sentiment is that since mods need to be cleaned because of UDR, well, why not do the ITM while you are at it ? And why not add Wrye Flash tags (with a script that already exists) ? And quickly check it for errors with xEdit ?
It doesn't take that much more time than creating the mod itself. It's all very daunting for a player who just bought the game, and just want to enjoy it with all the nice mods out there, but the situation is what it is. If more mod authors could be convinced to do the above before release, then it certainly would help these players. Most popular mods already do that, but they're still in the minority.
Your mod is very promising in that it gives the example of an author that tries to genuinely improve what is already good (Fennec's mod, even if it also has its share of ITMs). I hope it (and your mods to come?) will reap the success it deserves.
- open xEdit - select just the mod to clean (uncheck all other mods, xEdit will load the relevant master files by itself) - select "Apply Filter for cleaning" on the mod - right-click on the mod and pick "Undelete and disable references" - right-click on the mod again and pick "Remove identical to master records" - as a bonus, remove the previous filter, right-click on the mod and "Check for errors" - as another double-wammy bonus, select the mod, right-click, select "Apply script" and pick the "Generate Bash tags" script. Let it run and hit the "Yes" button whenever the script requests it. - save the mod
Done.
Note that a master file needs to be cleaned on its own before the mods that depend on it. In your example, "Factions Reloaded - Merge.esm" would have to be cleaned first, before "Factions Reloaded - Merged (Fixes 1.1).esp" could effectively be cleaned in turn.
Nothing that you have said is "scaring" me away or deterring me from wanting to create a better product. I work 60+ hours a week, so the only deterrent is time, but I work on this when I get a chance. I actually cleaned the other mods that I have done based on your method and they needed it. I cleaned the NCR Rearmament fix and something didn't work out, there were a ton of errors. I honestly think that I don't have the original NCR Rearmament set as a master, so it didn't load in. I'll get to it, but for now I want to keep going with the Factions Reloaded updates.
You actually have me to the point that I'm going to end up cleaning every single mod that I use (only like 60-70, so nothing like some people's load orders). I don't have a ton of crashes, but it's still enough to be annoying, so if this will help then I'm all for it. With cleaning the 3 other mods that I have done, it didn't take long at all. I had to keep referring back to the order that you use, and if not for that it would have taken close to half the time if I had the routine memorized. So from my perspective, if someone is capable of creating a mod with proper instruction like you provided me, there is no reason to not clean it (except for the restoring of cut content like you mentioned, or if the "error" is necessary to function properly).
Now I have a question in regards to you stating the clean the master itself first. In this mod's instance my work is 100% dependent upon the work of the original mod author. Since I'm not able to clean the original mod and release it with mine, would I be better creating my mod while leaving the parent mod uncleaned? I hope that makes sense. If I clean the original on my system and use it as the basis for building mine, will my mod still function properly on the system of someone who didn't clean the original themselves for installing my mod?
I honestly don't see myself becoming a big mod author. I'm married, work a ton, and have too much other stuff going on. I'm also not the most creative person. I like to take the work of others and change it to suit my personal taste, while at the same time hopefully doing so in a way that others want or will enjoy as well. And the more proficient and knowledgeable that I get, the more that I'll probably be willing to tackle. Meeting and working with or learning from people like you also make it much quicker, easier, and more enjoyable as well. While I don't understand how to read all the logs on what is being cleaned yet, it irritates me that the issues are there in the first place so it's going to encourage me to do what I can to avoid them and even then always clean the mod to fix something that either I or the system did that shouldn't be there.
That is good. I'm happy to see that I haven't lost my time.
I'm a firm proponent of "give a man a fish and he has to eat for a day, teach a man how to fish and has to eat for a life time" or something like that. What is a mild annoyance and waste of time at the source (the mod author, a single person) can become a huge waste of time down the pipe if mod users (hundreds of people or more) have to do the cleaning instead. There is hope that more authors will take example on what you did, and we will see more mods of quality in the future.
To answer your question, you won't be able to clean it as it probably should be, no, not without cleaning the master file first as I've explained. ITMs that remain in the master file become "persistent" to the client file, so it can't touch them. Since you don't own the master file, I think you did what you could, barring perhaps to ask the original mod author to clean their mod. Otherwise said, I wouldn't release a (cleaned) mod to a (cleaned) master that isn't public.
Most of the ITMs are created by the GECK, because of the poor export/save routine of the engine, and some small innocuous manipulations of the mod author, like modifying a record and then reverting the change. Therefore, it's not really the fault of mod authors, but without cleaning the result is unfortunately the same at the end of the day for the mod user.
For what it's worth, you get a big thumbs up and thank you from me as a humble user of (your) mods.
As a side note, crashes happen 90% of the time because of : - lack of RAM/VRAM, the 4GB patch or pre-patched GOG version of the game do help - bad INI file settings, I'd use BethINI and avoid tinkering with the files otherwise, beyond what Gamerpoets video advises - bad load order or missing masters, LOOT can help but educated manual sorting and merging with zMerge and Wrye Flash (and using its tags) works best eventually - UDRs, or other navmesh issues
Watch your NVSE and NVAC logs for potential issues. Change that to MCM and UIO logs if you run into interface mishaps. Avoid mods that show up with too many errors in xEdit. Avoid anything that is marketed as "optimized" and "performance improvement" like the pest. As a Win10 user, I was having issues even with NVSR which is probably the one which has the most chances to actually work. Finally, use a good and modern mod manager.
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I have started to use FNVEdit to clean my mods as well thanks to KarmaPowered! I am also open to suggestions to other mods, fixes, and edits but be aware that I have no scripting talent or experience.
Mod Updates:
- Note: Any time I update the mod I'll try to remember to update this post with any areas that were changed so you can quickly see what changed.
- v1.1: Legion Forward Camp Gamma, (1) Overall NPC Change
-Dubious-
General Issues with Faction Reloaded (FR)
I found other places where FR deletes NavMeshes, which is a major NO-NO, but YUP and AWOP (the only other mods I have so far that could conflict) don't edits them. So it's not a problem for me.
It has a lot of ITMs and deleted items FNVEdit can easily fix, along with the sorted masters problem reported by dubiousintent below.
Thanks!
Lively desert, Mojave Wildlife, Mojave raiders, The Living desert and of course AWOP would be on the top of the list. I was also thinking of adding "Factions reloaded", so your fixes (and even additions) are most welcome. Do you think it would be too much "livelyness" ?
I especially like how thoroughly you document your changes. As long as the mod is clean in FNVEdit, and doesn't clog the old engine with endless script loops or bugged NPC AIs, I'm a happy camper. No suggestion yet, but I may come back with some later.
Thank you very much for the mod.
EDIT : A couple of ITM that appear in FNVEdit, but no UDR, so that's a good sign for a clean mod!
What does ITM and UDR mean? If an ITM is an issue and I created it, I can look into fixing it. I appreciate the comment and compliment!
About ITMs, they're duplicates from master files inside ESPs. They can be harmful if you want to "enhance" something from the base game or another mod, for example a weapon or an NPC, and you have several conflicts :
- (mod 1) replaces Trudy's shirt with a red one and gives her a shotgun instead
- (mod2) replaces Trudy's stats and voice, but carries along ITMs which come as the white shirt and the 9mm from the base game
Optimally, you want mod2 to contain only the relevant changes : the change of stats and voice, not the ITMs, so that it respects the changes of mod1 : the red shirt and the new shotgun.
You can clean such mods with FNVEdit. Here is a quick tutorial that explains the process with Skyrim (but it's similar for FNV).
About UDRs, they're undeleted deleted references. Basically, if in the above configation of base game + mod1 + mod2 :
- (mod 1) replaces Trudy's shirt with a red one and gives her a shotgun instead, deletes the existing room/navmesh and has her standing still
- (mod2) replaces Trudy's stats and voice, but carries along ITMs which come as the white shirt and the 9mm from the base game, and has her again walking to the room/navmesh (which no longer exists!)
that would be very bad, since Trudy in the modded game would never be able to find the room/navmesh. This can crash your game, which is why one needs to again call FNVEdit to the rescue.
Here is a much more thorough STEP guide, which has it all.
As I said, no ITMs and UDRs are the sign of clean mods. Barring some rare cases (restoring "uncut" content, for example), It can never hurt to clean a mod, and it's best done by the mod author themselves since they know best what exactly should be in their mods.
I think it's good practice to do it once before each release, since it also shows you the redundant and useless stuff you could avoid adding in the first place (it's not you, of course, but the toolset). The one thing to watch out for is if you delete stuff belonging to master files (typically vanilla), and not "undelete" with FNVEdit, because such issues can potentially lead to crashes.
With experience you'll be very efficient with mod cleaning, and players with a hundred of conflicting mods in their lists will be grateful for it. You may also get the reputation over time for releasing such "cleaner" mods, which is another bonus.
In any case, thank you in for taking my request in consideration.
Since you're the only person commenting, could you let me know what you think of the changes to Legion Forward Camp Gamma after the next time you visit it?
For all other cases, any mod should work *exactly* the same before and after the cleaning if you follow the proper procedure. The engine doesn't need redundant records to work as intended. The only difference is that mods loading before your own could have issues if you (unwillingly) restore vanilla values that they modified, so cleaning is GOOD (tm) and getting accustomed with FNVEdit even more useful.
In any case, I'm still in the process of rebuilding my new mod setup but getting close to the end (building my LOD and fine-tuning my character custom race). I'll test it in game once I have the chance, and report back if I find any issues.
Removing: [CELL:000DDF5B] (in WastelandNV "Mojave Wasteland" [WRLD:000DA726] at 0,0)
Removing: GRUP Exterior Cell Sub-Block 0, 0
[Removing "Identical to Master" records done] Processed Records: 224, Removed Records: 2, Elapsed Time: 00:00
They're not major ones, I wouldn't be worried, and could probably only affect mods that change weather or lighting/imagespace of outside cells.
I did the cleaning with xEdit v4.0.1 by the way, which is exactly the same than FNVEdit. xEdit is just "recolored" for each game with an argument :
Launch xEdit with an argument "-fnv" = FNVEdit
Launch xEdit with an argument "-tes5" = TES5Edit
etc.
I never thought about cleaning the mods that I've obtained from others. You're by far the most helpful person I've met or seen on here, and I really appreciate it.
I didn't want to "scare" you with xEdit, because for some reason people shy away from it for FNV while it is routinely used for all other Bethesda games. The game will still run "fine" if you leave ITM in, but it may not run "as intended", especially in heavily modded games.
EVE will overwrite AWOS, and AWOS will overwrite PN, and PN will overwrite YUP : it runs, with some morsels of each mod here and there, but is it really the *optimal* way to run the game, when you can have EVE texturing goodness AND AWOS sound goodness AND PN weapon tweaks/overlays AND YUP fixes all at once ?
Even then, it's the UDR that really *need* to be cleaned. There is no way around it, because game crashes will happen otherwise sooner or later. My sentiment is that since mods need to be cleaned because of UDR, well, why not do the ITM while you are at it ? And why not add Wrye Flash tags (with a script that already exists) ? And quickly check it for errors with xEdit ?
It doesn't take that much more time than creating the mod itself. It's all very daunting for a player who just bought the game, and just want to enjoy it with all the nice mods out there, but the situation is what it is. If more mod authors could be convinced to do the above before release, then it certainly would help these players. Most popular mods already do that, but they're still in the minority.
Your mod is very promising in that it gives the example of an author that tries to genuinely improve what is already good (Fennec's mod, even if it also has its share of ITMs). I hope it (and your mods to come?) will reap the success it deserves.
- open xEdit
- select just the mod to clean (uncheck all other mods, xEdit will load the relevant master files by itself)
- select "Apply Filter for cleaning" on the mod
- right-click on the mod and pick "Undelete and disable references"
- right-click on the mod again and pick "Remove identical to master records"
- as a bonus, remove the previous filter, right-click on the mod and "Check for errors"
- as another double-wammy bonus, select the mod, right-click, select "Apply script" and pick the "Generate Bash tags" script. Let it run and hit the "Yes" button whenever the script requests it.
- save the mod
Done.
Note that a master file needs to be cleaned on its own before the mods that depend on it. In your example, "Factions Reloaded - Merge.esm" would have to be cleaned first, before "Factions Reloaded - Merged (Fixes 1.1).esp" could effectively be cleaned in turn.
You actually have me to the point that I'm going to end up cleaning every single mod that I use (only like 60-70, so nothing like some people's load orders). I don't have a ton of crashes, but it's still enough to be annoying, so if this will help then I'm all for it. With cleaning the 3 other mods that I have done, it didn't take long at all. I had to keep referring back to the order that you use, and if not for that it would have taken close to half the time if I had the routine memorized. So from my perspective, if someone is capable of creating a mod with proper instruction like you provided me, there is no reason to not clean it (except for the restoring of cut content like you mentioned, or if the "error" is necessary to function properly).
Now I have a question in regards to you stating the clean the master itself first. In this mod's instance my work is 100% dependent upon the work of the original mod author. Since I'm not able to clean the original mod and release it with mine, would I be better creating my mod while leaving the parent mod uncleaned? I hope that makes sense. If I clean the original on my system and use it as the basis for building mine, will my mod still function properly on the system of someone who didn't clean the original themselves for installing my mod?
I honestly don't see myself becoming a big mod author. I'm married, work a ton, and have too much other stuff going on. I'm also not the most creative person. I like to take the work of others and change it to suit my personal taste, while at the same time hopefully doing so in a way that others want or will enjoy as well. And the more proficient and knowledgeable that I get, the more that I'll probably be willing to tackle. Meeting and working with or learning from people like you also make it much quicker, easier, and more enjoyable as well. While I don't understand how to read all the logs on what is being cleaned yet, it irritates me that the issues are there in the first place so it's going to encourage me to do what I can to avoid them and even then always clean the mod to fix something that either I or the system did that shouldn't be there.
I'm a firm proponent of "give a man a fish and he has to eat for a day, teach a man how to fish and has to eat for a life time" or something like that. What is a mild annoyance and waste of time at the source (the mod author, a single person) can become a huge waste of time down the pipe if mod users (hundreds of people or more) have to do the cleaning instead. There is hope that more authors will take example on what you did, and we will see more mods of quality in the future.
To answer your question, you won't be able to clean it as it probably should be, no, not without cleaning the master file first as I've explained. ITMs that remain in the master file become "persistent" to the client file, so it can't touch them. Since you don't own the master file, I think you did what you could, barring perhaps to ask the original mod author to clean their mod. Otherwise said, I wouldn't release a (cleaned) mod to a (cleaned) master that isn't public.
Most of the ITMs are created by the GECK, because of the poor export/save routine of the engine, and some small innocuous manipulations of the mod author, like modifying a record and then reverting the change. Therefore, it's not really the fault of mod authors, but without cleaning the result is unfortunately the same at the end of the day for the mod user.
For what it's worth, you get a big thumbs up and thank you from me as a humble user of (your) mods.
- lack of RAM/VRAM, the 4GB patch or pre-patched GOG version of the game do help
- bad INI file settings, I'd use BethINI and avoid tinkering with the files otherwise, beyond what Gamerpoets video advises
- bad load order or missing masters, LOOT can help but educated manual sorting and merging with zMerge and Wrye Flash (and using its tags) works best eventually
- UDRs, or other navmesh issues
Watch your NVSE and NVAC logs for potential issues.
Change that to MCM and UIO logs if you run into interface mishaps.
Avoid mods that show up with too many errors in xEdit.
Avoid anything that is marketed as "optimized" and "performance improvement" like the pest. As a Win10 user, I was having issues even with NVSR which is probably the one which has the most chances to actually work.
Finally, use a good and modern mod manager.
Good luck.