Morrowind

Morroblivion and mods that use content from other games

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Sadly today I have been requested by Bethesda Softworks to pull the mod "Morroblivion" from the site as it breaches the EULA for Oblivion. Matt Grandstaff explained the situation:

Essentially, we let folks mod our games like Morrowind or Oblivion, but we don’t allow for folks to take content from another game and put it into a new game – even if they own both copies, and even if it's one of our own games.


The situation is unfortunate, as Morroblivion was a great tool I'm sure made with the best of intentions, but the rights to this content belong to Bethesda Softworks and they are perfectly within their rights to make such requests. While I'm pretty liberal when it comes to the content allowed on the site (nudity, violence, etc. etc.) when it comes to copyrights and content ownership I have to draw the line.

Hopefully you can all appreciate the situation. If you believe a file you're looking at is in breach of copyright or takes content from Morrowind, or any other game, please use the "Report this file" feature to inform the staff on the site so it does not potentially affect myself and the site itself.

Thank you.

Update
Before locking a topic on the official forums about Morroblivion, moderator Dogsbody has provided further clarification on the matter:

There are many reasons why this is so; among others, it is important to protect the original licensor's rights when Bethsoft has licensed a resource to use in a game. That license may allow use of the resource in that game alone, and Bethsoft is duty-bound to prevent the resource from being used in any other game, including their own.


It is evident many users are upset by the decision and many of us, myself included, were wondering why exactly this had to be done. Hopefully this helps patch things up. I stand by the comment that providing this information from the offset, rather than it being weeded out of different people gradually, can only bring good things. Communication communication communication.

317 comments

  1. Axeman
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    @Axeman: Why are you pleading your case here? This is not the court that must decide on this issue. We are the modders who would like to see BethSoft give it's corporate blessing to doing this. We are just following the rules they laid down to avoid legal entanglements with their lawyers.

    If you are, as you imply, a lawyer. Why not go to NDL - and any other companies that own the copyrights, and secure permission, then get with Bethsoft and secure their blessing so these types of mods can be done.

    As I see it, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future, BethSoft IS bound by their contracts with these other companies, no matter what the other company says, they BOTH must agree to amend the contract to allow this. So neither Beth nor NDL can unilaterally say it is allowed.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and do not claim any special legal skills or insight beyond having taken a required university class in business law and serving on a jury for a civil case (lawsuit)


    First off, it was a joke, I am not a lawyer. I just thought it was funny that a simple discussion about modding could ever end up like what we have here, one where we have to break out the legal mumbo-jumbo to even carry it on.

    Btw, If I said I had the eye of the tiger, would you assume I literally had one of those as well? How about the heart of a lion? <img class=">

    Next, I'm pleading OUR case. (I'm assuming anyone reading this topic has an interest in seeing this mod released. Not sure why else you would care about this topic.. ?)

    Last you are completely wrong, NDL makes game content, and licenses it to game companies, they still own that content, hence this discussion, and the issue at hand. Bethesda obviously only licensed the art for the games they are used in, outside of that scope, NDL owns the content, and can do whatever they want with it. (That's why Beth can't let us use it in Oblivion, they don't have a license to use it in that game.)

    How many mods have Bethesda shutdown? One, as far as I know(Morroblivion), and they said it's due to them not owning the content.

    So my whole point is missed, by everyone apparently.. NDL are the ones we need to be concerned with, and whether or not they care about us using the content. (ie, Bethesda probably doesn't care, if they don't.)


    ..Snip..


    That's fine, I'm simply saying, how about asking NDL, they could give us the go ahead, and then it would be fine.

    I'm not arguing anything, I was simply pointing out a possible solution apparently everyone else overlooked, simply asking the content owners what they think.

    That requires more than me doing so, hence my posting here, where supporters of this mod might be found.

    I can name a few companies that have done things you wouldn't expect, given someone simply asking.

    For example, Rockstar has given a guy permission to merge GTA3 + Vice City + San Andreas into a single game engine. All he did was emailed them, and asked. (I doubt he's lying, the project is pretty well known, and has not been shutdown, and has several releases already, mostly finished and playable. Minus quest, etc,. The landmasses are done..)

    (Sounds a lot like Morroblivion, but for the GTA series, don't ya think?)
  2. Dark0ne
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    People make this situation far deeper than it needs to be. Lets break it down in to something simple.

    The simple fact of the matter is Bethesda provide modding tools and rights as a priviledge and not as a given. Many people seem to take this very simple fact for granted. They didn't have to provide these tools, they did so out of their own good will and in the knowledge that their support for the tools would be limited. They are a video game company with profits at the forefront of their mind. Mods don't make a direct profit and arguments for the idea that more people buy the game because of the modding tools available is not something they can put on their operational reports and financial accounts. It's not tangible.

    With this in mind Bethesda don't want to be spending the lawyers fees and man hours necessary to properly get to the bottom of the legal issues surrounding Morroblivion and mods of similar ilk and have simply put a blanket ban on such activity. Such an action is well within their rights and I refuse to fault them for it. This is business. This is what you do when you run a business. It makes perfect sense.

    The more people complain about these very petty things (yes, they are petty) the less likely it is Bethesda will bother to release modding tools in the future. My own communication with various staff at the studio suggest that this can be the case;if the community pushes such petty things and makes releasing modding tools more hassle than it's worth.

    The fact is we can sit here arguing legalities all we like but at the end of the day I have plenty of respect for Bethesda and if they tell me to jump every once in a while, I'll do it. Since the last time they told me to jump was over Morroblivion 2 and a half years ago I've no reason to complain or extend ill-will in the slightest.
  3. bben46
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    @Axeman: Why are you pleading your case here? This is not the court that must decide on this issue. We are the modders who would like to see BethSoft give it's corporate blessing to doing this. We are just following the rules they laid down to avoid legal entanglements with their lawyers.

    If you are, as you imply, a lawyer. Why not go to NDL - and any other companies that own the copyrights, and secure permission, then get with Bethsoft and secure their blessing so these types of mods can be done.

    As I see it, at the present time, and for the foreseeable future, BethSoft IS bound by their contracts with these other companies, no matter what the other company says, they BOTH must agree to amend the contract to allow this. So neither Beth nor NDL can unilaterally say it is allowed.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, and do not claim any special legal skills or insight beyond having taken a required university class in business law and serving on a jury for a civil case (lawsuit)
  4. Helena7t5
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    I would like to think that our opinions would modify Bethesdas position in the future but I guess that's unlikely. There are so many different agencies involved in the production of game content that haggling would probably be a legal nightmare. I utterly sympathise with those modders who have spent months or years working on content which will now be useless. What a waste ! How shortsighted of the company.

    I'm also concerned about some of the mods that mimic content from MW. I don't want to mention any names here, but there are some terriffic mods that would be nothing without it. Clarification would be useful here, what exactly breaches copyright ?
    I have several mods almost ready for release and they all mention places or people from MW. Are we allowed to do that?
    Can I have a dunmer call the PC Muthsera for example.


    <img class="> <img class="> <img class="> <img class=">
  5. Axeman
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    Numerical Design Limited owns the art copyrights.

    http://www.mobygames.com/company/numerical-design-limited

    I'd really like to hear directly from NDL on the matter.

    Bethesda has an agreement with NDL, and as such probably pulled the project on that basis, but, does NDL even care, were they even contacted? If they were contacted, did Bethesda make it past their lawyers, did they even talk to someone in charge. (ie, not Denise at customer service, etc,.?)

    You see, look at this chain of involvement.

    NDL
    NDL Lawyers
    Bethesda
    Bethesda Lawyers

    As you can see, we have a lot of points, so at what point in the chain were these decisions made?

    Did Bethesda just mention it to their lawyers, who said, no, better not. (In which case NDL was never even brought into the equation? Considering it's(admittedly) NOT Bethesda's property, the ban would be unacceptable under these conditions. (While they are contractually bound to protect NDL's property, this agreement cannot supersede NDL's decision on the matter as the copyright holders.))

    Did Bethesda even mention it to their lawyers? Perhaps they just didn't want to fool with it, and issued the ban personally, again, this isn't acceptable, it's not their property, as we've already determined. (Only NDL has the right as the copyright holders to make such a judgement\decision.)

    Now one might argue that NDL has already made their stance clear, ie, through the existence of the original contract with Bethesda. That's a valid point, but keep in mind, it's over ten years old, and stances can change. As such they should have been allowed to have a say in the matter.

    A good example of this concept, I can tell you where you can download a copy of GTA for free, and some might immediately try to set me on fire screaming burn the witch.. er, pirate. But, as it turns out, Rockstar has indeed decided to change their stance on the game, they no longer want money for it, and offer it for free on their website. (GTA1 and GTA2)

    But I guarantee you, if you look at ten year old legal documentation concerning those titles, it would contradict that more modern stance on the issue.

    As such my points stand, unless NDL signed off on this, it's not official, and it's not Bethesda's place to stop it outright, they do have the right to not support it, to not allow discussions of it, etc, in fact they are legally bound to do that much, however, anything more, is overstepping their legal bounds, they have no legal right to dictate NDL's policy on the content.

    And lastly, yes, inside me beats the cold black heart of a lawyer. <img class=">
  6. nikoligrim
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    Mores the pity, because you know the exact same thing is going to happen if anyone tries to combine Fallout3 with the upcomming Fallout New Vegas.
  7. Dark0ne
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    My lawyer says otherwise.
  8. micheal0011
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    Just as an FYI Morrowind material is copyrighted, so any person/team publically releasing a mod that directly replicated the Morrowind environment, story, quests, NPCs, look, etc. would be infringing that copyright, irrespective of whether the user owns Morrowind or not. When you buy computer games you buy the right to play the game as the developer intends, which is often described in a EULA or legal blurb somewhere on or in the product. You are not buying the rights to use the content of the software as you see fit.

    Bethesda obviously still owns the rights to all their work and can legally request any files be pulled from the site that infringes on these rights. They know what Morroblivion did, what it was, and that users needed Morrowind in order for the utility to work. They inquired with their legal department about the utility and decided it best to ask the file be pulled.

    Now I think some cool water could easily be thrown over the situation with a simple explanation of how that decision was reached; I know I'm interested and I'm sure many of the mature minds here would come to understand why this action has been taken if only there were a proper explanation of why.

    I can't see it happening though, I'm pretty sure they don't care enough about the issue to give it a proper seeing to. I'd be happy if they could prove me wrong and restore a little faith in their PR.



    actually the EULA (me and a lawyer read over it) you can do whatever you want to your copy of the software, as long as you don't sell it or claim it as your own, nobody did any of that, and the file you download had no textures, no meshes, only an .exe created by somebody to convert files from one format to another, (perfectly legal) plus your using YOUR copy like i said earlier you can do pretty much what you want, now my lawyer wants me to mention that the ESP converter is not infringing on any of Bethsoft's current condititons in the EULA so, they had no legal right to shut it down. copyrighted material or not, if you own it you can do what you see fit. and they know this, thats what they are afraid of.
  9. micheal0011
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    i think the whole morroblivion thing wiht Bethsoft is complete *manure* they are taking something great and killing, whats next, no mods that the orignal game script or incorporate another company's stuff, they need to take a chill pill and relax, it aint gonna hurt anything, i wanna call them up and give them a piece of my mind, in fact i will!!
  10. Lord of the Strings
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    [...]
    I see so many people just flame bashing Bethesda for this reason when really
    they are just following what the original makers of the meshes want with
    their work. Everyone is quick to judge and snap but imagine if it was your
    work and you were put in the situation instead of getting angry.


    Nope. Please understand, that I'm not going to bash anyone here.

    The fact is (e.g.): In whole Europe and especially in Germany, the way
    to drive a buyer to except a Software License by clicking on accept when
    installing routine is running, is legally completely without any effect,
    because it is not told you *before* you are going to purchase this. It is
    told you (the License Agreement (EULA) ) *after* you have purchased the
    game and opened it: that's nonsense. That does not mean, that there
    are no copyright laws here (we name this Urheberrecht and this is
    partly traditionally different from the anglo-american term and law
    of copyright).

    Of course, in Europe you are not allowed to copy a game without legal right
    as well as in the whole world. But this so called *included rights
    restriction* (I do not know the precise anglo-american term of inkludierte
    Software Lizens) says nothing.

    If Bethsoft have some contract with any 3rd Person about software licensing,
    then Bethsoft are limited in use of their rights with respect to this
    contract. But *I* am not. Me just has a contract with *Bethsoft*. And this
    is ruled by *International, European and German Laws*, not by the contract
    Bethsoft have with a *3rd Party*.

    Please understand this.
    Greetings to the Community and beg your pardon for my stumbling English
    today ;-)

    LoTS

    For further discussion on the topic What's wrong with the converter this
    might be the better place:

    http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19875