A great amazing mod indeed; many thanks from a long time Myst (and sequels) player. Now I'm enjoying the Stoneship Age a lot, though I was wondering if I could find a full walkthrough, as all I found actually is only the demo walkthrough (it ends when you revisit the Void).
I have the same problem. Full walkthrough would be very helpful. Now stuck in the Stoneship Age. Killed usurper in a temple, got some cool items as a reward, but still can't figure out what to do with the "360 degree chamber", and can't find the book to leave this Age.
Apologies. I made this Mod in 2015 and put the project aside back in 2016. However, I'm back and going through the Mod for any improvements. I will work on a walkthrough as well. Most likely a video playthrough that will be posted on Youtube. I'm glad to see people enjoyed it! Cheers!!
Greetings! The long overdue 1.5 update is now available. The following changes have been implemented:
1) Improved hint system 2) Balance fixes to a few battles 3) The "secret Statistics" system is place for 20 secrets 4) Fixes to grammar and minor visual elements
Happy Holidays, gamers! Thank you to all who have downloaded this Mod; and a little extra special Thanks to those who downloaded and Endorsed on Christmas Day!
I am working on an update that should be ready in a week or two. It's a moderate update that will take in to account much of the feedback I have received from users, in addition to some minor improvements of my own (including a few new custom spells).
Almost done with the Stoneship Age. Explored every nook and cranny, beat the boss (way easier than the one of the Mechanical Age, by the way), still no book. I mean, setting the Aquatic Chamber to 12 didn't do anything, so I guess I didn't get it. That wall button in the Aquatic Chamber's not doing anything either. And absolutely no idea what to do with the two wall indentations in the "no torches here ever" area, just above the lockpicks. So yeah, rip in peace.
I will say, the snake pincer was mean, but at least I wasn't blinded. The symmetrical docking wasn't too bad either, although you can cheat your way in there without pushing all the buttons. Just sidestep towards the lever and pull it as you're falling. There were a few minor spelling errors too, like breath instead of breathe. People playing on ironman mode will also never complete the side quest in this age, so that's not brilliant. Oh, and the elemental arrows don't work, unless you restricted those based on skill level.
I quite like this age, actually. It's detailed and unique. It does force you to tank a few times, which I'm not the biggest fan of, but at least it gives a metric fruit ton of stat bonuses to your non-humans / -minotaurs.
The Stoneship Age is my personal favorite. I will look in to the button/lever cheat you described. I never noticed it, nice catch!
For the Aquatic Chamber, yes setting it to 12 is the answer. Make sure there is nothing on any other plates, and then go push the wall button right there at the entrance. That room has a lever used to turn on the lights (its only use) and a wall switch for the "12" solution.
One more matter of convenience. You may notice this when playing through this age again yourself. There is quite a lot of backtracking to be had. Up the ladder, down the water, through the corridors if you really want to get everything. Would be nice to have unlockable shortcuts other than the single one that isn't even bidirectional. Same goes for the path to the void on that note. I know, I know, it's pretty, it's ominous, and it cuts tiny corners for no reason. After the second or third time though, it's really nothing special anymore and just a drag to get back. This is what we call padding.
Mandatory edit:
Channelwood age. Unique aesthetic, smart adaptation of the puzzle. The forest section suffers from the same problems that the Selenitic maze does, but you're probably aware of this. The first part of the boss falls under this category as well, but the second part redeems this nonsense because it's exactly how a well-designed boss should present itself. If you panic, you die. If you play well, you dominate. For some reason though the game gave me another horn of summoning. Oversight?
Done with all the stuff, gave the bros their last gems, suddenly they both want the blue gem. Typo alert! Into the secret area we go. First problem: The direction of the floor. Same nonsense as the Aquatic Chamber except multiplied by 20. If you place stuff looking at the floor from the wrong direction, you need to collect all of that stuff manually and place it down yet another time. Labor near the end of the game? Really? So easy to fix too. Add an empty tile on the solution sheet. Done.
That aside, cute bro endings, absolutely horrendously terrible third ending. Like, are you serious? You just went full retard on this one because you were running out of ideas. Admit it. I mean, here's the rundown of what comes next: Player surrounded by enemies, player surrounded by waves of enemies and two ranged guys that would actually be deadlier if they were up-close, player surrounded by ranged enemies (neat weapon in the secret room though), player in a pincer attack again, player in yet another pincer attack, even more pincer attacks to come, the worst pincer attack in the history of "What were you thinking?", FINALLY an interesting part that makes smart use of that enemy's unique knockback ability, annnd back to the player being surrounded or pinched from both sides et cetera.
Really disappointed right now. I will endorse this mod solely on the basis that most of it is quality work, well put together, and I certainly don't regret picking it up, but boy does that final part cause my opinion of this mod to plummet. Again, it's not difficult. It's just inventory management. Chug potions, proc Force Field, drop some bombs, poke the attack buttons. WASD can go take a nap in the meantime. The worst part is that you're fully aware of this nonsense, which is why you give the player a whole 11 crystal shards over the course of the game. Thank you very much but that only makes the finale even more brain-dead. I'll just help out one of the bros and have a chat with the heater guy. Way less annoying, and eventually you'll get used to it. See you in the December update~
lol, well I do love the passion and animated dialogue in your feedback :-)
Thanks for reporting the "blue gem" typo, that will be fixed right away, along with the accidental drop of the second Horn. The blank tile for positioning in the 3rd ending puzzle is something that should be uploaded with the quick 1.4 update that this will entail.
As for the constant stream of battles that come towards the end,
I actually really do enjoy brute force battles, and I have received some feedback from others who not only enjoyed these, but felt that not many other players would be successful since it would take a "hardcore gamer" to muscle through it. Not that I necessarily agree that one must be hardcore, but by this stage in the game, with all the gear, extra +skills from leveling, food, and Tome's... I really can't see how they can be anything but fun.
Although, in a future update I wouldn't mind adding more allure via puzzles-based combat similar to the mid-game battles. Maybe with the "Pain" room exception, since I pretty much love it as-is.
The Rime Age battles are intentionally less challenging as an attempt (once again) to simulate the experience from realMyst. Watch any YouTube video of a Rime Age playthrough, and people end up with a, "uuhh... that's it??" response. Rime was fun to look at due to the snow; however, it was very basic in terms of the Myst-world puzzles. No real challenge and rather anticlimactic. Yes, I know, I should have taken this opportunity to remedy that, but "nostalgia" really was my original intent!
If I may "toot my own horn" at this point, my biggest goal was to recreate an acceptable Myst-world in a lengthy RPG setting... all without a single game impacting bug, zero performance issues, and design uniqueness worthy of a gamers time. It seems I was able to achieve that, and this is the first Mod I ever attempted, so I am more than pleased with the end-result.
Your feedback has been great. Your standards as a gamer are quite high so I take it as a great compliment that you invested the time and energy to complete the entire Mod. Thanks again, and hopefully my December update will bring the gaming experience closer to something grand (as far as user-Mods go).
Well...those watery woods were actually bottom of the barrel in terms of performance, but I don't have the best rig, so there's that. I will say, there is an argument to be made for the finale from a power fantasy perspective. It's like the final nail in the coffin that tells you whether your party sucks or not. I imagine it's a breeze on Normal, but then the rest of the mod would feel a bit, you know, slow.
I'll give credit where credit is due though. For a first attempt, this is already better than some other mods out there. New mechanics and items, diverse locations, generally competent use of assets. Just goes to show that the number of endorsements or downloads doesn't mean crud.
And it's pretty hilarious how you can burn Zarchons underwater. We'll just pretend that's an Easter egg~
Quick update regarding dem Usurpers and Pirates and Things. Cute geography~
I was wondering why the place wasn't full of charcoal, but hey, suspension of disbelief. This time around, I don't mind the first part being straightforward because it's intended to let you study the enemies to prepare for the synergistic boss. I'm a little worried about the escape route though because some may not realize the purpose of a certain dagger or have anyone capable of using that convenient staff you get after the boss. A crafty solution the Dwarf Kingdom mod uses is to set a predetermined path for the "patrols" so you could get past with good timing.
As for the subsequent puzzle, there's a clipping glitch. When you shove an item into a wall, you can see the item poke through on the other side. It would also be nice to reactivate the platform on the second level so you don't break your legs every time to drop down. On that note, I would consider buffing Recovery. It's a cheap band-aid and saves you both a headache and a potion sometimes, but the rest of Earth magic is still absolute garbage, so sinking 3 points into it just for Recovery and the occasional Poison Shield is not worth it.
Finally, I would like to thank you for throwing ammunition out the window. It's not what I would have done to buff firearms but it's a start. Realistically, the cannon is still the only saving grace for gunslingers, and even in this mod it will run out of ammo before the end. Then again, giving that monster infinite ammo would make archery too weak in comparison. Funny how that works. At least you can spam the Six-Shooter now~
Glad you found the Mechanical Age a bit more appealing. I completely agree regarding the platform drop for the bridge, that's on the top of my list for the holiday update. To compensate, I did put a healing crystal around the corner to help lol
Regarding those patrols that users may find too challenging if they can't use a proper weapon on the Isle's,
There is actually a very easy way to kill them without ever attacking them directly. Have you seen the video of the guy who beat LoG2 in just over 1 hour? He uses the tactic I'm referring to; so I have that part covered I think.
I also agree on the Recovery requirements. I actually dropped it down lower than its original version, since I borrowed that spell code from another Modder who had the requirements far too high. I felt that with players gaining 2 Skill Points per level, the 3 points in to Earth wouldn't be too terrible. Since a Wizard/Caster can finally master every magic element. As for the Poison Shield... it does become worth it later I think ;-)
You're welcome regarding the guns. I love the infinite ammo since it doesn't over-power them at all. As you noted, the cannon is the only exception since it is just too crazy of a weapon. And for the sake of realism, while I can slightly justify "magic bullets" ... I just can't bring myself to extend that to "magic cannon balls." I personally love the bow/arrow and in this Mod players can have a good combat edge early on by starting with Missile Weapon skill.
Since my feedback has been mostly on the negative side, I would like to take a moment to note what you did well. Naturally, most of this may just be copypasta from the original, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt~
First and foremost, introducing wall buttons to the observant player. Neither Grimrock 1 nor 2 managed to do this without text. Your approach was to have multiple rooms with loot and then a single one with no loot at all. Ergo, you get suspicious and look around. The observant player would then also look at their map and find that another of these rooms seems to have a hidden room. That's when you find out about breakable walls very early into the game...if you bother to go through the observatory fights.
Secondly, shoutouts to the Farmer. Those four chains in the early game bring the Farmer to new heights because nobody else ever needs to eat for most of the game. This alleviates the stress that players feel in the vanilla game if they do decide to have a Farmer on their party. If you don't have one, food becomes practically irrelevant, which saves you a small headache. Win-win situation.
Thirdly, the boss fights of the first half are all ingenious, more like puzzles than straightforward whacking. However, I do agree with other players saying that ranged tactics are an immense help, especially when it comes to the dreaded wall. At first I just didn't have the DPS to deal with all this nonsense, but a few levels later I came back fully loaded and demolished the place so hard, it barely had time to get in gear. Maybe you could throw the less diverse parties a bone with a few more freezing bombs, hm?
As for the second half though, oh boy. I had the pleasure to start with the Selenitic age. Fairly quaint. Not too much going on here. And then my eardrums exploded. Turn down the volume of those sound effects, alright? Goodness gracious. Worse than that however was that you can easily go out of bounds with no chance to return by sidestepping off ladders. The worst part about this is that there is a secret area you reach by doing that! That's just an embarrassing oversight.
Past the sound puzzle, I was greeted by the most tedious part of the game to date. Walk forward, walk backwards whilst killing stuff. Cornered? You better have Force Field, amazing tanks, or Frost Bombs. Heyo, all those parties that have neither Force Field nor Frost Bombs, have fun with that~ Same thing goes for the boss of the Selenitic age. Unbelievably lazy design. It's impossible to incorporate the movement system for most of the battle, so instead you turtle in a corner with, you guessed it, Force Field and Frost Bombs alongside potion spam. Heyo, all those parties that didn't invest in Alchemy, you better save up those Healing Crystals~ And what comes next is just a big dude all by himself? That sand warg at the start of the game gave me more trouble than this guy. The only challenging aspect of phase 2 is to pull off those lovely gloves you found earlier to speed up the process.
The Selenitic age is in dire need of revision, both on a technical and mechanical level. Don't be afraid to diverge from the original game. No game is perfect. A game is certainly not perfect when it repeatedly spits black goo in your face out of nowhere and violates you in a corner. I'm confident you will understand that metaphor and agree that this is just a dick move. Whatever happened to announcing incoming danger? Would that be too different from the original game because then there might be a chance that competent players react accordingly and deal with the ambush so the metaphor above does not become reality? As it stands, that's absolutely impossible unless you walk around every corner, keeping that paranoid Force Field ready at all times. It just feels like crud is what I'm getting at. I know old games have a tendency to pull dick moves on the player, but we're past that. Not even Dark Souls robs you of all your equipment just because you climbed up a ladder. I'm referring to those frog ganks in the Susa-no-o fight, which I'm not a huge fan of either. There's no way to avoid it and it disrupts the player's game plan significantly. That's the lesser of the two evils though I would say.
Regardless: Do not - corner - the player. If you set up your maps and creatures smartly, careless players will corner themselves by accident. They can't blame anbody but themselves for that, so it's a learning experience. If there's no way to avoid turtling in a corner, there's nothing to learn. It's just tedious and uninspired.
The simplicity of the Selenitic Age has always been special to me. One puzzle above ground, and a lengthy maze below. I still remember spending the entire night mapping out the maze (on the Sega console system), only to find out that the exit route was release in a gaming magazine that very same week.
But I digress,
I never tested going to the Selenitic Age as the first major choice after opening the Void gateways. During all my playtests I went to Selenitic second, third, and fourth; but never first. So of course that would be your first choice lol :-0
I can see how it could be very challenging at earlier levels and I will certainly spend some time giving this region extra attention. I have quite a few ideas that could add more depth and intrigue. But due to my personal love for Selenitic I opted to keep it a simply mirrored design populated with plenty of monsters. Hopefully I can enhance the Selenitic experience during the next update.
Regarding "cornering" the player,
Since all movement and combat is governed completely by Grids, there are really only 2 options ever for combat: Square Dancing or Cornering. Granted, due to the single square width of the Selentic Maze I can see how this can be problematic. Aside from that one map, however, the entire 30+ levels in this Mod do give the player plenty of grid-based freedom. Minor exceptions exist (like the Frogs in the Cult map), but they are few and far between. The other Ages will hopefully do you justice, but there are some "trials" towards the end-game that you may not like too much :-0
You misunderstand. It's not that the maze or the boss are particularly difficult. I mean, you can even see some of the ambush spots on the map since you can't expect everyone to play with maps off. If you do, what you have here is an array of screamers. What's off-putting about the ambushes is that they deliberately put you in a rough spot, even if you have the tools to perform well, and the time to react is nigh zero. At that point, you're basically playing Ninja Gaiden.
Remember the Arquebus ambush in the vanilla game? Nobody likes that one, even if you cut through those guys like a hot knife through butter. A few feet around the lake and you find yet another ambush, except deadlier with a friendly warning. Now, I'm not saying this is how it should be done, but you can see where I'm getting at. In other situations - I vividly remember Grimrock 1 here - they would frequently throw one or two creatures at you just to give you a false sense of security. In actual fact, walls were opening further back, setting up an ambush you can react to because you might have heard the sound of grinding rocks. If you didn't, you would probably panic and try to collect yourself as you're backing up...maybe into a corner.
That's another limitation of the maze. The paths are mostly very generous. At the start of the maze, you have little room to back up. After a while, you can theoretically go all the way back to where you started. Of course the maze says "Nope" to that and corners you right away sometimes. The paths never connect either, so it's not really a maze, is it? It's more like a gauntlet with dead ends.
If you give the notion of walls opening behind you while you're busy fighting a shot, you may find that you can incorporate this into the maze's layout to make it actually confusing to traverse. A nice side effect of this is that you can then open walls or just spawn creatures really far back who then wander the maze aimlessly. With all those interconnected paths, there is no way for you to know which direction they took, even if you know exactly that enemies are incoming. If you don't see it coming however, again, you probably panic and make a mistake that gets you killed, either by backing yourself into a corner or by playing it too safe, backing off too much, and then accidentally running into another group of enemies.
You don't even have to be completely unpredictable about it either. Open up a wall near the player with nothing inside. How suspicious is that? Have other parts of the maze close again either on a trigger or at regular intervals. Omit light sources sporadically for no reason just to have an ambush in one of the most well-lit spots of the entire maze. Inject some paranoia. The new tileset of this place is so very well suited for a tense, claustrophobic experience, it would be a shame to let that chance slip away.
If you're feeling really ambitious, you could even try to eventually make the maze itself the stage for the boss fight. Of course you would need to open up a few small arenas at least so you can perform some of that lovely Square Dancing as you so eloquently described it, just to make it so you don't run around like a headless chicken again except all the time now because it's a boss fight.
Either way, I'm confident that you figure something out to make this age truly special. I mean, the first part sets the tone of a desolate, forgotten place teeming with undead very nicely. Unfortunately, the second part is currently lacking personality. It has exactly one gimmick and that is it. That's kinda disappointing. It's like the cemetery in the vanilla game without the puzzles and narrower in scope.
One more thing I'd like to say is that you don't need to put emphasis on reliving the exact nostalgia that was Myst. People who did play it and did love it will recognize the similarities but won't judge you for making changes. In fact, making changes plays with the veterans' expectations, so even they get their fair share of surprises and challenges even if they claim to be experts at the game. After all, if they wanted a pure nostalgia rush, they would be replaying the original, so take this opportunity to make your adapation stand on its own feet~
My favorite part about your suggestions is that it is very much on par with my original plans for the Age. As we see, however, I didn't implement much of it for fear of deviating too far. The Demon Wall is an example of where I originally planned to take this age. I got the idea from the writings of Atrus about Selenitic. In the original Myst game, he writes about his feelings that this age itself seems to be alive. That is exactly the reason I created the moving wall in the mid-game that guards access to Selenitic.
However, when it came time to create the Age itself I decided against making it "come to life" since it is so far off from what players experience in realMyst. Having the maze "shift" constantly was high on my list, as well as other nifty tricks. Your suggestions confirm that I should have gone with my gut instead of worrying about mirroring things too strictly.
Thanks so much for the very detailed feedback. I like your background, experience, knowledge, and observations of the game. An lol @ the Ninja Gaiden reference :-p
This really seems to be a common theme in Grimrock 2 mods. There is always a guessing game involved because the hints are just stellar. Maybe I'm dense, but couldn't some of these hints have been a bit more forthcoming?
Like, instead of ...blue... and ...red..., why not make it a simple metaphor, like "The gate is craving for a ruby." and then have a torch next to the grey alcove to make it a bit less camouflaged on the grey wall? Instead of just three dots in the secret room, why not tell the player "Art evaluation: Nothing to evaluate." or something of the sort?
Then there's the issue with the sound wall. Why would you start counting from the top left as though you were reading text despite the fact that the sound is in the middle of the notes whereas the more logical starting point would be the lowest note at the bottom-left or the highest note at the top-right? More unnecessary guessing that could have been prevented by a simple note of the composer saying "I was pulling levers from top to bottom and eventually found a nice melody with a twist." At least now you can argue it should be clear how the numbers relate to the sound wall.
It's simple things like these that might make the riddles too easy for some, but a hell of a lot less frustrating for those who approach it from a direction that's not a point-and-click adventure where you try everything with everything.
Hi there! Thanks for making time to play this Mod and give some Feedback.
Regarding the "red/blue" implementation. The reason I chose its current form is due to the re-interpretation of the original Myst game. When you first arrive on Myst Island (in the real game), there is a Blue Book and a Red Book. There is no text, no metaphors, no clues. If you try to read either book without first placing a Blue/Red "page" in them, all you get is a static sound. Which to me is the equivalent of a "..." display. In realMyst, the player must use their eyes to see that a Red Page is next to a Red Book, and a Blue Page is next to a Blue Book. The player must come to the conclusion - all on their own - that placing a page in a book is a good thing.
In Mystrock, it is no different. In fact, I already felt that I was straying too far by displaying the "red" and "blue" text. But since I didn't have a proper color match to use, I chose to associate the Red Book and Red Page with a "red text" and red gem (and ditto for the Blue's). To use a stronger hint would deviate too much from the original game, and since the gems are literally right next to the text and alcove, I can't really see it being a major problem.
Regarding the Sound Wall,
I have received similar feedback from other gamers, mostly during the Demo release. The reason I left it in its current form is because I felt that the numbering makes it very clear that the player starts the count from left to right. Whether a note is High or Low shouldn't impact the decision since the hint is number-based, not sound/pitch -based. The only real decision the player must make is whether to start from the top row or the bottom row. Since there are only 2 rows the puzzle should be fairly quick to solve (eg, no more than 60 seconds).
Regarding the hidden text in the Library that begins with "..." ,
If I were to add the text "nothing to evaluate" as you suggest, then this would mislead the player in to thinking that they can place any number of objects for evaluation. The player could end up frustrated very quickly since this is one of the first areas they encounter before solving the first major clue. The purpose of the first clue is to provide instructions to the player on how to use that room. I can see why you would make a suggestion like this, because in hindsight you already know what that text ends up being used for; so in hindsight this seems to make sense. However, that is the problem many would-be game designers face: how do we implement something from the perspective of "not knowing" even though we "already know" ?
With all that said, I do hope you continue on your journey and provide more feedback. I do plan to release an update around December, I will consider your feedback and try to figure out ways to increase the intuitiveness of the experience (reduce any frustrations) without destroying the essence of the original game.
Fair point about the three dots. That suggestion was just off the top of my head~
How Myst handled the red and blue puzzle is interesting though. The connection between key and lock is clearer because they both correspond to each other visually. That's not the case in the Grimrock adaptation. You could argue that it should be obvious to put the gems into the alcoves because there's nothing else nearby. Other mods do it too.
However, the vanilla game does not, or at least I can't remember an instance when it uses that particular alcove for a placement puzzle. The vanilla game has its own tiny wall indentations, which are more eye-catching, but even then it doesn't leave you alone regarding what to do with them. Instead, it hints that there should be something in there.
I don't know how far the books and the pages were apart from one another in the original or how saturated they were, but a reasonable compromise would be to make the library just a tad larger, maybe front-load some minor, very general lore bits, push the gems and alcoves further apart, but then position the alcoves in such a way that they are in front of you when you walk into the room instead of to the side, and finally mark the alcoves with an orange / blue floor tile from the philosopher stone puzzles. That way, you might get away with the two "books" having no content at all, which would be a wee bit closer to the original again~
ah, I love the suggestion of using a floor tile to help with the colors. Great idea and it will definitely be incorporated in to the December update. I will also see about increasing the size of the room. Thanks!
If you get to the other ages, let me know what you think.
Give Feedback
21 comments
Now I'm enjoying the Stoneship Age a lot, though I was wondering if I could find a full walkthrough, as all I found actually is only the demo walkthrough (it ends when you revisit the Void).
1) Improved hint system
2) Balance fixes to a few battles
3) The "secret Statistics" system is place for 20 secrets
4) Fixes to grammar and minor visual elements
Enjoy!
I am working on an update that should be ready in a week or two. It's a moderate update that will take in to account much of the feedback I have received from users, in addition to some minor improvements of my own (including a few new custom spells).
Best wishes!
I will say, the snake pincer was mean, but at least I wasn't blinded. The symmetrical docking wasn't too bad either, although you can cheat your way in there without pushing all the buttons. Just sidestep towards the lever and pull it as you're falling. There were a few minor spelling errors too, like breath instead of breathe. People playing on ironman mode will also never complete the side quest in this age, so that's not brilliant. Oh, and the elemental arrows don't work, unless you restricted those based on skill level.
I quite like this age, actually. It's detailed and unique. It does force you to tank a few times, which I'm not the biggest fan of, but at least it gives a metric fruit ton of stat bonuses to your non-humans / -minotaurs.
For the Aquatic Chamber, yes setting it to 12 is the answer. Make sure there is nothing on any other plates, and then go push the wall button right there at the entrance. That room has a lever used to turn on the lights (its only use) and a wall switch for the "12" solution.
Mandatory edit:
Channelwood age. Unique aesthetic, smart adaptation of the puzzle. The forest section suffers from the same problems that the Selenitic maze does, but you're probably aware of this. The first part of the boss falls under this category as well, but the second part redeems this nonsense because it's exactly how a well-designed boss should present itself. If you panic, you die. If you play well, you dominate. For some reason though the game gave me another horn of summoning. Oversight?
Done with all the stuff, gave the bros their last gems, suddenly they both want the blue gem. Typo alert! Into the secret area we go. First problem: The direction of the floor. Same nonsense as the Aquatic Chamber except multiplied by 20. If you place stuff looking at the floor from the wrong direction, you need to collect all of that stuff manually and place it down yet another time. Labor near the end of the game? Really? So easy to fix too. Add an empty tile on the solution sheet. Done.
That aside, cute bro endings, absolutely horrendously terrible third ending. Like, are you serious? You just went full retard on this one because you were running out of ideas. Admit it. I mean, here's the rundown of what comes next: Player surrounded by enemies, player surrounded by waves of enemies and two ranged guys that would actually be deadlier if they were up-close, player surrounded by ranged enemies (neat weapon in the secret room though), player in a pincer attack again, player in yet another pincer attack, even more pincer attacks to come, the worst pincer attack in the history of "What were you thinking?", FINALLY an interesting part that makes smart use of that enemy's unique knockback ability, annnd back to the player being surrounded or pinched from both sides et cetera.
Really disappointed right now. I will endorse this mod solely on the basis that most of it is quality work, well put together, and I certainly don't regret picking it up, but boy does that final part cause my opinion of this mod to plummet. Again, it's not difficult. It's just inventory management. Chug potions, proc Force Field, drop some bombs, poke the attack buttons. WASD can go take a nap in the meantime. The worst part is that you're fully aware of this nonsense, which is why you give the player a whole 11 crystal shards over the course of the game. Thank you very much but that only makes the finale even more brain-dead. I'll just help out one of the bros and have a chat with the heater guy. Way less annoying, and eventually you'll get used to it. See you in the December update~
Thanks for reporting the "blue gem" typo, that will be fixed right away, along with the accidental drop of the second Horn. The blank tile for positioning in the 3rd ending puzzle is something that should be uploaded with the quick 1.4 update that this will entail.
As for the constant stream of battles that come towards the end,
I actually really do enjoy brute force battles, and I have received some feedback from others who not only enjoyed these, but felt that not many other players would be successful since it would take a "hardcore gamer" to muscle through it. Not that I necessarily agree that one must be hardcore, but by this stage in the game, with all the gear, extra +skills from leveling, food, and Tome's... I really can't see how they can be anything but fun.
Although, in a future update I wouldn't mind adding more allure via puzzles-based combat similar to the mid-game battles. Maybe with the "Pain" room exception, since I pretty much love it as-is.
The Rime Age battles are intentionally less challenging as an attempt (once again) to simulate the experience from realMyst. Watch any YouTube video of a Rime Age playthrough, and people end up with a, "uuhh... that's it??" response. Rime was fun to look at due to the snow; however, it was very basic in terms of the Myst-world puzzles. No real challenge and rather anticlimactic. Yes, I know, I should have taken this opportunity to remedy that, but "nostalgia" really was my original intent!
If I may "toot my own horn" at this point, my biggest goal was to recreate an acceptable Myst-world in a lengthy RPG setting... all without a single game impacting bug, zero performance issues, and design uniqueness worthy of a gamers time. It seems I was able to achieve that, and this is the first Mod I ever attempted, so I am more than pleased with the end-result.
Your feedback has been great. Your standards as a gamer are quite high so I take it as a great compliment that you invested the time and energy to complete the entire Mod. Thanks again, and hopefully my December update will bring the gaming experience closer to something grand (as far as user-Mods go).
Cheers!
I'll give credit where credit is due though. For a first attempt, this is already better than some other mods out there. New mechanics and items, diverse locations, generally competent use of assets. Just goes to show that the number of endorsements or downloads doesn't mean crud.
And it's pretty hilarious how you can burn Zarchons underwater. We'll just pretend that's an Easter egg~
I'm mapping out the next round of updates to help enhance the experience. The plan is for December but I may try to get something up sooner.
I was wondering why the place wasn't full of charcoal, but hey, suspension of disbelief. This time around, I don't mind the first part being straightforward because it's intended to let you study the enemies to prepare for the synergistic boss. I'm a little worried about the escape route though because some may not realize the purpose of a certain dagger or have anyone capable of using that convenient staff you get after the boss. A crafty solution the Dwarf Kingdom mod uses is to set a predetermined path for the "patrols" so you could get past with good timing.
As for the subsequent puzzle, there's a clipping glitch. When you shove an item into a wall, you can see the item poke through on the other side. It would also be nice to reactivate the platform on the second level so you don't break your legs every time to drop down. On that note, I would consider buffing Recovery. It's a cheap band-aid and saves you both a headache and a potion sometimes, but the rest of Earth magic is still absolute garbage, so sinking 3 points into it just for Recovery and the occasional Poison Shield is not worth it.
Finally, I would like to thank you for throwing ammunition out the window. It's not what I would have done to buff firearms but it's a start. Realistically, the cannon is still the only saving grace for gunslingers, and even in this mod it will run out of ammo before the end. Then again, giving that monster infinite ammo would make archery too weak in comparison. Funny how that works. At least you can spam the Six-Shooter now~
Regarding those patrols that users may find too challenging if they can't use a proper weapon on the Isle's,
There is actually a very easy way to kill them without ever attacking them directly. Have you seen the video of the guy who beat LoG2 in just over 1 hour? He uses the tactic I'm referring to; so I have that part covered I think.
I also agree on the Recovery requirements. I actually dropped it down lower than its original version, since I borrowed that spell code from another Modder who had the requirements far too high. I felt that with players gaining 2 Skill Points per level, the 3 points in to Earth wouldn't be too terrible. Since a Wizard/Caster can finally master every magic element. As for the Poison Shield... it does become worth it later I think ;-)
You're welcome regarding the guns. I love the infinite ammo since it doesn't over-power them at all. As you noted, the cannon is the only exception since it is just too crazy of a weapon. And for the sake of realism, while I can slightly justify "magic bullets" ... I just can't bring myself to extend that to "magic cannon balls." I personally love the bow/arrow and in this Mod players can have a good combat edge early on by starting with Missile Weapon skill.
First and foremost, introducing wall buttons to the observant player. Neither Grimrock 1 nor 2 managed to do this without text. Your approach was to have multiple rooms with loot and then a single one with no loot at all. Ergo, you get suspicious and look around. The observant player would then also look at their map and find that another of these rooms seems to have a hidden room. That's when you find out about breakable walls very early into the game...if you bother to go through the observatory fights.
Secondly, shoutouts to the Farmer. Those four chains in the early game bring the Farmer to new heights because nobody else ever needs to eat for most of the game. This alleviates the stress that players feel in the vanilla game if they do decide to have a Farmer on their party. If you don't have one, food becomes practically irrelevant, which saves you a small headache. Win-win situation.
Thirdly, the boss fights of the first half are all ingenious, more like puzzles than straightforward whacking. However, I do agree with other players saying that ranged tactics are an immense help, especially when it comes to the dreaded wall. At first I just didn't have the DPS to deal with all this nonsense, but a few levels later I came back fully loaded and demolished the place so hard, it barely had time to get in gear. Maybe you could throw the less diverse parties a bone with a few more freezing bombs, hm?
As for the second half though, oh boy. I had the pleasure to start with the Selenitic age. Fairly quaint. Not too much going on here. And then my eardrums exploded. Turn down the volume of those sound effects, alright? Goodness gracious. Worse than that however was that you can easily go out of bounds with no chance to return by sidestepping off ladders. The worst part about this is that there is a secret area you reach by doing that! That's just an embarrassing oversight.
Past the sound puzzle, I was greeted by the most tedious part of the game to date. Walk forward, walk backwards whilst killing stuff. Cornered? You better have Force Field, amazing tanks, or Frost Bombs. Heyo, all those parties that have neither Force Field nor Frost Bombs, have fun with that~
Same thing goes for the boss of the Selenitic age. Unbelievably lazy design. It's impossible to incorporate the movement system for most of the battle, so instead you turtle in a corner with, you guessed it, Force Field and Frost Bombs alongside potion spam. Heyo, all those parties that didn't invest in Alchemy, you better save up those Healing Crystals~
And what comes next is just a big dude all by himself? That sand warg at the start of the game gave me more trouble than this guy. The only challenging aspect of phase 2 is to pull off those lovely gloves you found earlier to speed up the process.
The Selenitic age is in dire need of revision, both on a technical and mechanical level. Don't be afraid to diverge from the original game. No game is perfect. A game is certainly not perfect when it repeatedly spits black goo in your face out of nowhere and violates you in a corner. I'm confident you will understand that metaphor and agree that this is just a dick move.
Whatever happened to announcing incoming danger? Would that be too different from the original game because then there might be a chance that competent players react accordingly and deal with the ambush so the metaphor above does not become reality? As it stands, that's absolutely impossible unless you walk around every corner, keeping that paranoid Force Field ready at all times.
It just feels like crud is what I'm getting at. I know old games have a tendency to pull dick moves on the player, but we're past that. Not even Dark Souls robs you of all your equipment just because you climbed up a ladder. I'm referring to those frog ganks in the Susa-no-o fight, which I'm not a huge fan of either. There's no way to avoid it and it disrupts the player's game plan significantly. That's the lesser of the two evils though I would say.
Regardless: Do not - corner - the player. If you set up your maps and creatures smartly, careless players will corner themselves by accident. They can't blame anbody but themselves for that, so it's a learning experience. If there's no way to avoid turtling in a corner, there's nothing to learn. It's just tedious and uninspired.
But I digress,
I never tested going to the Selenitic Age as the first major choice after opening the Void gateways. During all my playtests I went to Selenitic second, third, and fourth; but never first. So of course that would be your first choice lol :-0
I can see how it could be very challenging at earlier levels and I will certainly spend some time giving this region extra attention. I have quite a few ideas that could add more depth and intrigue. But due to my personal love for Selenitic I opted to keep it a simply mirrored design populated with plenty of monsters. Hopefully I can enhance the Selenitic experience during the next update.
Regarding "cornering" the player,
Since all movement and combat is governed completely by Grids, there are really only 2 options ever for combat: Square Dancing or Cornering. Granted, due to the single square width of the Selentic Maze I can see how this can be problematic. Aside from that one map, however, the entire 30+ levels in this Mod do give the player plenty of grid-based freedom. Minor exceptions exist (like the Frogs in the Cult map), but they are few and far between. The other Ages will hopefully do you justice, but there are some "trials" towards the end-game that you may not like too much :-0
Remember the Arquebus ambush in the vanilla game? Nobody likes that one, even if you cut through those guys like a hot knife through butter. A few feet around the lake and you find yet another ambush, except deadlier with a friendly warning. Now, I'm not saying this is how it should be done, but you can see where I'm getting at. In other situations - I vividly remember Grimrock 1 here - they would frequently throw one or two creatures at you just to give you a false sense of security. In actual fact, walls were opening further back, setting up an ambush you can react to because you might have heard the sound of grinding rocks. If you didn't, you would probably panic and try to collect yourself as you're backing up...maybe into a corner.
That's another limitation of the maze. The paths are mostly very generous. At the start of the maze, you have little room to back up. After a while, you can theoretically go all the way back to where you started. Of course the maze says "Nope" to that and corners you right away sometimes. The paths never connect either, so it's not really a maze, is it? It's more like a gauntlet with dead ends.
If you give the notion of walls opening behind you while you're busy fighting a shot, you may find that you can incorporate this into the maze's layout to make it actually confusing to traverse. A nice side effect of this is that you can then open walls or just spawn creatures really far back who then wander the maze aimlessly. With all those interconnected paths, there is no way for you to know which direction they took, even if you know exactly that enemies are incoming. If you don't see it coming however, again, you probably panic and make a mistake that gets you killed, either by backing yourself into a corner or by playing it too safe, backing off too much, and then accidentally running into another group of enemies.
You don't even have to be completely unpredictable about it either. Open up a wall near the player with nothing inside. How suspicious is that? Have other parts of the maze close again either on a trigger or at regular intervals. Omit light sources sporadically for no reason just to have an ambush in one of the most well-lit spots of the entire maze. Inject some paranoia. The new tileset of this place is so very well suited for a tense, claustrophobic experience, it would be a shame to let that chance slip away.
If you're feeling really ambitious, you could even try to eventually make the maze itself the stage for the boss fight. Of course you would need to open up a few small arenas at least so you can perform some of that lovely Square Dancing as you so eloquently described it, just to make it so you don't run around like a headless chicken again except all the time now because it's a boss fight.
Either way, I'm confident that you figure something out to make this age truly special. I mean, the first part sets the tone of a desolate, forgotten place teeming with undead very nicely. Unfortunately, the second part is currently lacking personality. It has exactly one gimmick and that is it. That's kinda disappointing. It's like the cemetery in the vanilla game without the puzzles and narrower in scope.
One more thing I'd like to say is that you don't need to put emphasis on reliving the exact nostalgia that was Myst. People who did play it and did love it will recognize the similarities but won't judge you for making changes. In fact, making changes plays with the veterans' expectations, so even they get their fair share of surprises and challenges even if they claim to be experts at the game. After all, if they wanted a pure nostalgia rush, they would be replaying the original, so take this opportunity to make your adapation stand on its own feet~
However, when it came time to create the Age itself I decided against making it "come to life" since it is so far off from what players experience in realMyst. Having the maze "shift" constantly was high on my list, as well as other nifty tricks. Your suggestions confirm that I should have gone with my gut instead of worrying about mirroring things too strictly.
Thanks so much for the very detailed feedback. I like your background, experience, knowledge, and observations of the game. An lol @ the Ninja Gaiden reference :-p
Like, instead of ...blue... and ...red..., why not make it a simple metaphor, like "The gate is craving for a ruby." and then have a torch next to the grey alcove to make it a bit less camouflaged on the grey wall? Instead of just three dots in the secret room, why not tell the player "Art evaluation: Nothing to evaluate." or something of the sort?
Then there's the issue with the sound wall. Why would you start counting from the top left as though you were reading text despite the fact that the sound is in the middle of the notes whereas the more logical starting point would be the lowest note at the bottom-left or the highest note at the top-right? More unnecessary guessing that could have been prevented by a simple note of the composer saying "I was pulling levers from top to bottom and eventually found a nice melody with a twist." At least now you can argue it should be clear how the numbers relate to the sound wall.
It's simple things like these that might make the riddles too easy for some, but a hell of a lot less frustrating for those who approach it from a direction that's not a point-and-click adventure where you try everything with everything.
Regarding the "red/blue" implementation. The reason I chose its current form is due to the re-interpretation of the original Myst game. When you first arrive on Myst Island (in the real game), there is a Blue Book and a Red Book. There is no text, no metaphors, no clues. If you try to read either book without first placing a Blue/Red "page" in them, all you get is a static sound. Which to me is the equivalent of a "..." display. In realMyst, the player must use their eyes to see that a Red Page is next to a Red Book, and a Blue Page is next to a Blue Book. The player must come to the conclusion - all on their own - that placing a page in a book is a good thing.
In Mystrock, it is no different. In fact, I already felt that I was straying too far by displaying the "red" and "blue" text. But since I didn't have a proper color match to use, I chose to associate the Red Book and Red Page with a "red text" and red gem (and ditto for the Blue's). To use a stronger hint would deviate too much from the original game, and since the gems are literally right next to the text and alcove, I can't really see it being a major problem.
Regarding the Sound Wall,
I have received similar feedback from other gamers, mostly during the Demo release. The reason I left it in its current form is because I felt that the numbering makes it very clear that the player starts the count from left to right. Whether a note is High or Low shouldn't impact the decision since the hint is number-based, not sound/pitch -based. The only real decision the player must make is whether to start from the top row or the bottom row. Since there are only 2 rows the puzzle should be fairly quick to solve (eg, no more than 60 seconds).
Regarding the hidden text in the Library that begins with "..." ,
If I were to add the text "nothing to evaluate" as you suggest, then this would mislead the player in to thinking that they can place any number of objects for evaluation. The player could end up frustrated very quickly since this is one of the first areas they encounter before solving the first major clue. The purpose of the first clue is to provide instructions to the player on how to use that room. I can see why you would make a suggestion like this, because in hindsight you already know what that text ends up being used for; so in hindsight this seems to make sense. However, that is the problem many would-be game designers face: how do we implement something from the perspective of "not knowing" even though we "already know" ?
With all that said, I do hope you continue on your journey and provide more feedback. I do plan to release an update around December, I will consider your feedback and try to figure out ways to increase the intuitiveness of the experience (reduce any frustrations) without destroying the essence of the original game.
Cheers!
How Myst handled the red and blue puzzle is interesting though. The connection between key and lock is clearer because they both correspond to each other visually. That's not the case in the Grimrock adaptation. You could argue that it should be obvious to put the gems into the alcoves because there's nothing else nearby. Other mods do it too.
However, the vanilla game does not, or at least I can't remember an instance when it uses that particular alcove for a placement puzzle. The vanilla game has its own tiny wall indentations, which are more eye-catching, but even then it doesn't leave you alone regarding what to do with them. Instead, it hints that there should be something in there.
I don't know how far the books and the pages were apart from one another in the original or how saturated they were, but a reasonable compromise would be to make the library just a tad larger, maybe front-load some minor, very general lore bits, push the gems and alcoves further apart, but then position the alcoves in such a way that they are in front of you when you walk into the room instead of to the side, and finally mark the alcoves with an orange / blue floor tile from the philosopher stone puzzles. That way, you might get away with the two "books" having no content at all, which would be a wee bit closer to the original again~
If you get to the other ages, let me know what you think.