The undead horse model is a part of the Dead World DLC. So if you download the compatibility patch for that without having the DLC, it would show up with no model. If this is happening and you are not using the DLC04 compatibility, let me know cause that means there's another problem that I need to hunt down!
for some reason, the spectres head in the portrait image when viewing on the strategic map is a black square. looks fine when you click on the detail image, or in combat.
the demilich spell only took one turn to cast instead of 3.
edit: Nevermind; I see that skills or items that decrease cast time in tactical work for strategic spells as well; this was the only strategic spell I have cast that wasn't instantaneous.
demilich effect was a nice touch, btw. like that one.
The head issue sounds like missing graphics or effects files? The spectre only uses vanilla effects and models, so that would indicate to me that you might have missing art assets for the game. Or if the file path is wildly different that in normally is since some of the file path is referenced in the XML.
-your base hitpoints are negative. lol. yup, my base hps are -5. OTOH, full grown dragons are afraid of me.
I was thinking another relic to add might be a phylactery. after you research building liches, you can construct a phylactery in one of your towns, that allows you to purchase an item that you can equip any undead unit (and your sovereign if they are now a demilich) with that gives them the deathward ability; the one that ancient grave golems and that construct hero have that gives them resurrect with 50% hps on the spot if they croak.
as of patch 1.6, explosive deanimation is not working. the animation triggers, but there is no effect.
that being one of the main reasons I wanted to try this, I'll have to put it on the back shelf until that's fixed.
oh, and whoever thought this was overpowered?
not.
this is actually just an average strategy power-wise; it's just an interesting twist. There are many more powerful strategies to employ. this one is just good enough. could be even a bit underpowered.
for one thing, I think the ability to add init and defense to your summons (can't recall the name, but it's at the end of the summon path) should be automatically applied to any summons, so they get to act in combat before being destroyed. as it is, an extra spell, it's very much useless since it takes too many turns to set up. just have it be a passive buff to your summons.
also, the summoning path should be two steps longer at least, and include some more powerful summons, like burning wraiths at the next step, and a grave elemental at the final step or what have you. zombies and skellies are not even good enough to deal with strong armies, let alone deadly or epic ones. a dragon can wipe out your entire summoned army in one shot. Hell regular mages get some tanks as summons even.
overall, my impression of this is that it has promise, but still isn't fleshed out enough... heh.
I will look into Explosive Deanimation on my end, and see if I can reproduce your issue. A couple questions. Is it the initial cast that's failing to produce the combat ability on the targets? If so, are you using custom undead units that were made in a previous playthrough as the targets?
The ability was more powerful when I first implemented it, as it did undefendable damage. I thought this damage solution was more flavorful, and made more sense for an explosion.
I think I know what you're saying here. I'm all for doing a balance pass on the summon buffs. I have it as a spell since the idea is to get to to work with undead that might be trained in a city via Reanimation Rituals. Realistically, though, I could probably make it work for both trained and summoned undead as a passive. It might take a lot of work, but I will play around with it and see how it feels. Not a bad idea, since I've actually felt the same way about the buff spells. It just occurred to me that I might be able to do the same thing with Explosive Deanimation (just make it passively show up on your undead automatically once you get the trait). That one has always been tricky to balance though, so that might tip it way over the power edge... but I could always move it down the tree now.
It would be easy to add more summons, it's just a matter of getting it done. I've been meaning to add champions to this mod, but I honestly spend way less time on it than I did a year ago. My initial thought with the summons for undead was to use them as an overwhelming force and/or a resource. I could add more creatures to summon, or I could try to scale up the reanimation bonuses more or differently. I don't think I've ever had a problem late game, but I use magic pretty extensively when I play. Honestly, I use the summons as support or a distraction.
Anyways, thanks for the feedback! You got me thinking about some stuff, which is always good. And sorry for all the rambling.
"A couple questions. Is it the initial cast that's failing to produce the combat ability on the targets? If so, are you using custom undead units that were made in a previous playthrough as the targets?"
nope. first playthrough, using summoned skeletons and zombies. the spell animates properly (you see the spell animation over the targets), but just has no effect. doesn't matter how many times I cast it.
Is it only supposed to work on units you train in your cities? seems odd.
I figured you had gotten the idea from other games that had explodable summons (there are a couple I recall having that, but can't recall the names now).
as for champ summons, the idea would be for more flexibility, rather than for power per se. being able to summon a burning wraith would be very helpful as a blocker for tough melee damage dealers. also, maybe toss a ranged summon in there somewhere.
"I use the summons as support or a distraction."
yeah, well, then that makes you a wizard instead of a summoner, ya? I thought the whole point of being a necromancer was to be able to animate the dead. *shrug*
if it were me, not only would I make the summon line more complex and deep, I would make a subpath that deals with reanimating dead enemies. After all, Beastlords can tame beasts, and other have abilities to charm twisted, and there is even a mod that lest you tame dragons. It would be pretty cool if you could reanimate enemy undead.
maybe it would be based on the strength of the opponent you want to reanimate. if you take level one of the skill, it would let you reanimate a weak-medium strength enemy, level 2 for strong enemies, and level 3 for deadly.
also, the chance to reanimate and control would be dependent on the enemy's spell resistance (yeah, even though they're dead).
would have to be a tough task, so maybe spell resistance is doubled for purposes of testing against chance to be reanimated, and have it be an expensive spell that takes at least a turn to cast. it would be a marker spell, so you cast it on your target first, while it is alive, then kill it and hope it reanimates for you.
since dragons have over 60 resistance, doubling that to 120 would make sure that you'd have to have a really high spell power to overcome the resistance with a reasonable chance (above 150 at least). Something like an ogre (with negative spell resistance) would be childsplay. Also, standard lore has it that the thing you want to reanimate has to be composed of flesh and bone, so no elementals.
anywho, just some thoughts. I had hoped that necromancy itself would be the key feature here.
__________ "nope. first playthrough, using summoned skeletons and zombies. the spell animates properly (you see the spell animation over the targets), but just has no effect. doesn't matter how many times I cast it.
Is it only supposed to work on units you train in your cities? seems odd." __ Hmm. It should work with any undead whether summoned or trained. For the DLC04 units you need the compatibility patch though. I tried to reproduce your problem myself, but it was working fine on summoned units for me. I only tried with summon skeletal horde, though. Do you remember exactly which summon spell it wasn't working with? They all draw from the same pool of units, but it might help me hunt down any possible problems.
__________ "I figured you had gotten the idea from other games that had explodable summons (there are a couple I recall having that, but can't recall the names now)." __ Pretty much! A lot of games have corpse explosion type of spells, but since bodies aren't persistent in the combat in this game, I had to improvise a little bit.
__________ "yeah, well, then that makes you a wizard instead of a summoner, ya? I thought the whole point of being a necromancer was to be able to animate the dead. *shrug*" __ A necromancer is not just a summoner. Although many games do focus on that aspect. The first "spirit" branch in the trait tree represents the augury aspect of necromancy, which is a more historical interpretation. Using the magic to commune with the spirits of the dead and so forth. The middle tree is using necromancy as a tool for reanimation, and the last tree was using anatomical knowledge combined with necromancy to get results. That said, I'm never against putting more skills into a branch, so the reanimation branch with probably get some more love.
__________ "if it were me, not only would I make the summon line more complex and deep, I would make a subpath that deals with reanimating dead enemies. After all, Beastlords can tame beasts, and other have abilities to charm twisted, and there is even a mod that lest you tame dragons. It would be pretty cool if you could reanimate enemy undead.
maybe it would be based on the strength of the opponent you want to reanimate. if you take level one of the skill, it would let you reanimate a weak-medium strength enemy, level 2 for strong enemies, and level 3 for deadly. no way to reanimate epic level enemies
also, the chance to reanimate and control would be dependent on the enemy's spell resistance (yeah, even though they're dead).
would have to be a tough task, so maybe spell resistance is doubled for purposes of testing against chance to be reanimated, and have it be an expensive spell that takes at least a turn to cast. it would be a marker spell, so you cast it on your target first, while it is alive, then kill it and hope it reanimates for you.
since dragons have over 60 resistance, doubling that to 120 would make sure that you'd have to have a really high spell power to overcome the resistance with a reasonable chance (above 150 at least). Something like an ogre (with negative spell resistance! would be childsplay. Also, standard lore has it that the thing you want to reanimate has to be composed of flesh and bone, so no elementals." __ Actually, the high level spell "Awaken" attempts to kill enemies and reanimate them! I've also been trying to get a spell to work that would damage living creatures and attempt to control undead units. I could simplify it and get it to work easily with just being able to control undead and nothing else, but it would not be all that useful. Anyways, I'm always in the process of changing things and adding new spells and stuff when they occur to me, and I can get them to work within the game's framework.
Unfortunately all we can do for modding in this game is add new art and modify game data. There's no scripting capability at all, which means if there isn't already a spell or ability that does what you want, you can't just add it on your own. This can hurt a lot sometimes. For instance, there's no way to target every unit on a battlefield.
Thanks again for taking the time to give your feedback. I always love talking necromancy! ...maybe too much... Hope we can get explosive deanimation issue sorted out.
I do not have the DLC for the undead, and am not using your compatibility version. I am using several other mods though:
-Add faction traits mod (version 3h) -Black Market Bizarre (compatible with heroic pursuits/COS version) -Champion Bonanza -Dragon Taming -Dragon friend -Heroic Pursuits -More Weaknesses -Riverbridge -Tax mod (just adjusts values of taxes on unrest)
that's it.
can't figure where anything would be interferring with that spell working, but if I have time, I'll try remove mods one at a time and see if it has an effect.
Alright, I'll check out the zombies then. It might be another mod, but it's unlikely since I moved everything into it's own class. Can't hurt to check, though!
EDIT: I tried out ED and it works fine with every summon on my end. I cast the spell, and the ability is added to all the undead units on the field under my control. The ability that is added also works (makes the unit detonate).
I can't find anything at all on my end. If you come across anything or get it working, let me know!
will test another round after eliminating some things.
...yes, I see you have the basic idea with the awaken spell, but instead of skeletons, why not have it reanimate whatever it kills as the thing it killed? that would make it a much more interesting high level skill.
edit: yay! working now. turned out I had made a modification myself to one of the other mods that was somehow interfering with yours. only figured it out after I replaced all the mods with their original versions.
yeah... I tinker a lot. maybe more than I even play the game
Glad you got it working! I tinker with this game more than I actually play it as well.
It would be awesome if I could have an undead version of whatever was killed. I'm not sure it's possible though, since I haven't been able to make branching flow control work at all (believe me I've tried). I've been playing with their new comparison logic trying to get some stuff to work with no luck at all.
..I now have my new necromancer riding on the back of a giant, poison and web spitting spider. He can charm twisted. He has your staff of summoning. He can cast wail in one turn instead of two.
"It would be awesome if I could have an undead version of whatever was killed. I'm not sure it's possible though, since I haven't been able to make branching flow control work at all (believe me I've tried). I've been playing with their new comparison logic trying to get some stuff to work with no luck at all."
ah. yeah, I guess you'd actually have to make an entire new class of beasties that are exact duplicates of every beastie there is, except undead versions.
yeah, I can see that would just be too much work.
how about this then:
when you kill an enemy with awaken, what gets summoned in its place is permanent, and dependent on the enemy strength level. so, weak to medium enemies get skellies or zombies, strong enemies get wraiths or liches, deadly enemies get grave golems or demiliches (if you have researched the "forbidden knowledge" )
that would work, since you already have all the models?
or, hell, if that's still not possible, maybe just add a tame undead ability in the path somewhere. then you could just tame any undead unit you see in the wilds. that should be in there somewhere anyway; probably add it to the sovereign abilities tree, so you can choose that instead of something like beastlord?
btw, every time I mentioned wraith? I meant banshee. damn brain malfunctions.
last request: liches need to be able to ride mounts if available. you don't want one of your best units limited to 2 square walking. maybe have limited design choices? can change mount and equipment, but not weapons or armor.
huh. I see in your files that you have "can be designed" enabled, just like for skellies.
but they do not appear in the design list, nor do the spectres. the skeletons and zombies do however.
...ah, it's the uniquebuildable trait that stops design.
*yoink*
now my liches ride black horses.
hmm. I'm thinking the thing to do with liches is to make them into henchmen. it takes a long time to research to make them, and they aren't groupable so... why not?
Yeah, adding an undead version of every creature would be one of the problems, since I'm definitely not an artist. The other issue is that I've never been able to get nested logic like that to work. So that would kill it for different summons based on the power of the creature killed too I'm afraid.
As for the "charming" of undead. I've already been playing around with a spell that does that. I wanted it to be more interesting than just charming undead though, since it would basically be a nerfed version of Domination. I was going to release it with the last update, but I still was never able to get the thing working the way that I wanted it to.
Making the Liches editable would require making a new unittype for them since I wouldn't want to just use an existing one because other armors and stuff would be buggy. Not sure if I'm going to do that or not since it's a pretty large amount of work for not that big of a return!
well, like I said, quick and dirty just removign the unique buildable trait made them editable.
they look fine on a horse; all the animations still work correctly. the weapon you chose for them is better than any that can be researched anyway (at least for ranged), so nobody is going to want to change that, that leaves armor, which, since the traits are still locked, you can only add robes, which again, look fine on them.
the equipment you can add is quite limited in effect, since you can't group them. I'd recommend just losing the unique build trait for these guys.
leave the spectres though. they make excellent scouts just as they are.
Well, no reason for me not to look at it again. I think the last time I was messing around with that was last year sometime when I was making reanimation rituals, so I can't remember the exact reason why I did what I did! It may have just been that I thought it went more with the flavor before.
heh, I have totally revamped the liches to be more "traditional rpg" in my game.
-designable -brilliant, and start off with a 10 point higher base magic power* (spells were too easily resisted, even at high levels before). -30% magic resistance (liches were typically highly magic resistant in every rpg ever. )
now they're worth the cost IMO.
modding is fun.
*this reminds me... there is a building (and research) to boost your units accuracy, but there isn't one for magic power. maybe add a building that does that for this faction?
ooh. one more thought... you know how slavelords get extra population when they win battles against humans?
how about instead, that the undead get cuts to unit production time of current undead units for every human battle they win? So, say you are producing a group of zombies, and it's going to take 10 turns at 5 production/turn. you kill a group of 6 humans, and that adds the equivalent of 1 production point per human, thus speeding up the process of producing your zombies by about one turn.
Just so you know, you've made a positive impact on this mod. I just got done making Liches customizable. But I added their own unit model type. This let me flag just the things I want them to be able to equip. I also turned all of their abilities into trainable options for them (there are 4, I just always left out counterspell so they could be trainable). Now the player gets to pick which three spells the Lich has, or he can sub a standard ability if he wants. I might add some more Lich unique gear for them too before I actually end up releasing this thing.
I also added a leveling ramp up on their spell resistance, spell power, and spell damage multiplier.
btw... I think I have found the most overpowered army... ever.
my deathmage, an archfiremage, plus a greatwolf, plus 3 juggernauts!
for some weird reason, the random large map I'm playing has escaped juggernauts all over the place. must be at least a half dozen of them.
since I had picked enthrall twisted, it was a bit too easy to get an army of them.
wolf howls (it's level 10, btw)... firemage casts graveseal on primary target, I cast zombie horde around target, juggernauts wade in and use the swarm bonus from the zombies to increase their accuracy... nothing, but nothing lasts longer than a turn. not a dragon, not an elmental lord. nothing.
sweet zombie jesus it's overpowered!
still, how often are you going to run into a map that is overflowing with escaped juggernauts?
I've been doing my best to keep the balance in line with the vanilla game. Balance and flavor are two very important aspects to me. If you try it and something feels off, please let me know!
I do not know. The only possible conflict is in Necromantic Compendium, where I add one level up trait after Greater Necromancy. I haven't looked at what Heroic Pursuits adds, so I can't say for sure if there's a conflict or not.
Update: I just downloaded the mod to test it out myself. I played Heroic Pursuits without my mod installed and with my mod installed. There were no changes. It looks like he didn't touch the Necromancy area. After a quick glance through the XML just to be sure, I think I can safely say that they ARE compatible with each other.
I'll mess around with it more when I get back from work. I just tried Ironeers as a Kingdom and an Empire with Reanimation Rituals and I was not able to reproduce the problem.
Have you made any edits to the XML at all? Specifically the <UnitType InternalName="RR_Skeleton"> block in RR_Units.xml?
If you add more than 4 <SelectedAbilityBonusOption> entries, the unit will not show up in the train list.
Glad to hear you got it working! If you want to add more abilities you can always make an ability that has more than one effect (or add more effects to one of the existing abilities). That's what I had to do to get more of the abilities into the trainable undead.
Are you planning on combining all of these things into one ability? The necromancy compendium stuff? I'm not confident that I can combine them myself :/
If you're talking about Reanimation Rituals and Necromantic Compendium, I'm planning on keeping them separate for now. I want to leave an option open for people who just want one or the other. If I combined them, I would make it one ability with a point cost of 2 in the faction editor to try and maintain some semblance of balance (so there wouldn't be any benefit).
If you're talking about the abilities that the creatures have; I wanted to combine them so I could fit all (or most in the Liches case) of their abilities in with them still being build-able. Really the skeleton is the only case where it would make a difference since that's the design-able unit, but I fill like not having all of the slots open for ability adds is a good counterbalance. Of course I'm open to discussion on the balance of all these things, so if something feels too strong or too weak, let me know!
Looking Good! is easy to create mods for Fallen Enchantress? units and abilities like these? hmm, I come to let you know that the mod is lacking some units, like the butcherman, haunter, some other units, also could you expand it? adding ways for the Sovereigh to become a Lich-King, abilities like the butcherman that gets undead enemies to increase their squad, also some undead horse or transport would be cool, customized armor for the skeletons, I've made several "Wights" but most of the armors seems mismatched, well, it looks good in a sense, but the helmets looks horrible, there are some undead spiders, hounds and many others, wish you could expand it to a more "Necromantic" sense, like adding ritual buildings, more spells, laboratories to develop more undead, maybe even some zombies? it is so fun, really, I'm enjoying it so much making several factions wars with those undead, I just wish you could expand it some more, maybe even some golems? in fact I have that Arcane Artificer mod for FE, converted to FE LH, all in junction is awesome, do you have more ideas?!
Adding butchermen and haunters is a great idea, and would not be difficult! If I add more units, I would probably have to increase the point cost of the Reanimation Rituals ability in the faction creator to keep it balanced, so I have to make sure that I add enough to keep it balanced. I will look into adding the rest of the undead creatures in the game.
I have been toying around with a mod that would add a sequence to allow the player's sovereign to become a Lich. I was a little stuck on what that could mean gameplay-wise. Just adding some spells or abilities might not be worth it, and the sovereign already has one of the Liches more powerful perks (when they die, they reconstitute elsewhere). If you have any ideas, feel free to share! Aside from that, I think it is impossible to change a creature's type and/or appearance once it already exists in the game. There is no scripting API available to modders (which pretty much means that if you don't see a system or function in the game in some form, there is a good chance it's not possible). Having said all that, Lichedom is my favorite goal in RPG's (it was always my goal when playing D&). So personally, this is something I will likely keep looking into.
It's just me working on this right now, and unfortunately I am not an artist. So custom armor for the skeletons is not possible at this time. Same with the zombies (they would need new art).
Building and spell additions are definitely possible, but out of the scope of this mod (I'm working on a necromancy specific spell mod right now, as for building additions, I just have to wait for some inspiration!). My current goal is to make separate mods for those things that each work well alone (in case someone doesn't want one of them), but also work well together!
Again, thanks for the input and suggestions. Glad you're enjoying it so far!
Oh Dhuran, thanks for the quick reply, I wasn't sure if you were going see what I've writed here, lol.
I have many, but many suggestions for this modular game, people aren't aware, but this game to be the best "adaptable" one, you can create almost anything.
What of now sir, is the lack of AI using the units, I've created a Quendar Empire, but they are only using the slaves, not the custom units, which in a way, is quite frustrating, in a game, they were like 1000 the power in Elemental, and I was like 860, but I get the Dragonlogy tech, and conquered all that Empire's territories, and the AI, just proud and high about how his armies were at my gates considering I've just devored half of his forces in one battle :/
AI need to use the units, it is essential, there are some Warlocks, Dark Mages that would be nice if added to the RR Ability, also tapping into necromancy, I've always played necromacer, or dark game in almost any game that had space for it, I think you could add some special weapon, or staff, or armor for the Lichdom and increase some stats, imbued by dark energies, mind control and other functions.
For Buildings, an exemple could the "Graveyard", an improvement giving boost to the undead and allowing more types to be created, Dark Temple to allow Dark Mages that casts Dark Firebolts, "Necromancy Laboratory" to allow undead improvements like special poisoned weapons, curses, also there are some plagued creatures, plague is also a form of necromancy; like blood, shadows, flesh.
Also if you're willing, I have suggestions for other mods, akin to this and the "Arcane Artificer", creating "Golems", constructs, creatures in the game lore like the shrills, crag spawns, elementals, and buildings or perks required to create them. In fact, I'm very interested in the golem part of it, Arcane Artificer mod failed to top it's greatness, like adding scrap golems, and other golems that was necessary to add. Also creating building improvements are quite easy if you've hit the Workshop already.
To be frank when I played the game for the first time I thought I could at least bind, most of the creatures to my command, or use cities to create them, but only race or professions could do that, not matter how magical advanced your Empire/Kingdom was, you couldn't build Scrap golems nor raise the dead, I hate when a game forces that, I know it is to balance the game, but it kinda limited it, but no sorry here, they gave us tools to change that.
Also some buildings to recruit bandits, captains wouldn't hurt the Bandit Lord Perk, it's kinda useless that perk, you hardly see a bandit in the game if you haven't spawn near where they spawn, and custom improvements, like Extortion and Tolls, and even chances of recruiting the Sydicate would be nice.
Also The "Binding" faction trait could be improved, the demons aren't that baddass. I was wishing we could Imps or Lesser Demons summoned at cities, or by a custom building, it did not :/
Also on the abilities part of it, they could be very useful if specific; All the time I have to wait a Fort to create my armies, I wish I could do it all on the field, while towns get other improvements, if add a spell to raise the dead or a ability to allow the Sovereigh to construct some creatures on field, it would be quite good. Also the Butchermen is some sort of Zombie.
Also you could add spells, some Death Spell on map mode that can cast to damage and curse entire army depending how much Death Crystal player has, a Shadow shield that leeches health if the caster is melee attacked
About the AI not using these units kinda upsets me, went through the files, and most mods are player-only? that means that only I can create the units?
Thank you for replying quickly, I can't get enough, created a Wraith Faction with RR, skeletons are kinda cannon fodder at start, but they get better as we improve, it was great of you, I can't wait to see what you're brewing up next.
Give Feedback
55 comments
I posted a new change-log in the 'changes' section (tab all the way to the right).
for some reason, the spectres head in the portrait image when viewing on the strategic map is a black square. looks fine when you click on the detail image, or in combat.
the demilich spell only took one turn to cast instead of 3.
edit: Nevermind; I see that skills or items that decrease cast time in tactical work for strategic spells as well; this was the only strategic spell I have cast that wasn't instantaneous.
demilich effect was a nice touch, btw. like that one.
Glad you like the demilich thing!
-your base hitpoints are negative. lol. yup, my base hps are -5. OTOH, full grown dragons are afraid of me.
I was thinking another relic to add might be a phylactery. after you research building liches, you can construct a phylactery in one of your towns, that allows you to purchase an item that you can equip any undead unit (and your sovereign if they are now a demilich) with that gives them the deathward ability; the one that ancient grave golems and that construct hero have that gives them resurrect with 50% hps on the spot if they croak.
quite fun.
that being one of the main reasons I wanted to try this, I'll have to put it on the back shelf until that's fixed.
oh, and whoever thought this was overpowered?
not.
this is actually just an average strategy power-wise; it's just an interesting twist. There are many more powerful strategies to employ. this one is just good enough. could be even a bit underpowered.
for one thing, I think the ability to add init and defense to your summons (can't recall the name, but it's at the end of the summon path) should be automatically applied to any summons, so they get to act in combat before being destroyed. as it is, an extra spell, it's very much useless since it takes too many turns to set up. just have it be a passive buff to your summons.
also, the summoning path should be two steps longer at least, and include some more powerful summons, like burning wraiths at the next step, and a grave elemental at the final step or what have you. zombies and skellies are not even good enough to deal with strong armies, let alone deadly or epic ones. a dragon can wipe out your entire summoned army in one shot. Hell regular mages get some tanks as summons even.
overall, my impression of this is that it has promise, but still isn't fleshed out enough... heh.
6/10
The ability was more powerful when I first implemented it, as it did undefendable damage. I thought this damage solution was more flavorful, and made more sense for an explosion.
I think I know what you're saying here. I'm all for doing a balance pass on the summon buffs. I have it as a spell since the idea is to get to to work with undead that might be trained in a city via Reanimation Rituals. Realistically, though, I could probably make it work for both trained and summoned undead as a passive. It might take a lot of work, but I will play around with it and see how it feels. Not a bad idea, since I've actually felt the same way about the buff spells. It just occurred to me that I might be able to do the same thing with Explosive Deanimation (just make it passively show up on your undead automatically once you get the trait). That one has always been tricky to balance though, so that might tip it way over the power edge... but I could always move it down the tree now.
It would be easy to add more summons, it's just a matter of getting it done. I've been meaning to add champions to this mod, but I honestly spend way less time on it than I did a year ago. My initial thought with the summons for undead was to use them as an overwhelming force and/or a resource. I could add more creatures to summon, or I could try to scale up the reanimation bonuses more or differently. I don't think I've ever had a problem late game, but I use magic pretty extensively when I play. Honestly, I use the summons as support or a distraction.
Anyways, thanks for the feedback! You got me thinking about some stuff, which is always good. And sorry for all the rambling.
nope. first playthrough, using summoned skeletons and zombies. the spell animates properly (you see the spell animation over the targets), but just has no effect. doesn't matter how many times I cast it.
Is it only supposed to work on units you train in your cities? seems odd.
I figured you had gotten the idea from other games that had explodable summons (there are a couple I recall having that, but can't recall the names now).
as for champ summons, the idea would be for more flexibility, rather than for power per se. being able to summon a burning wraith would be very helpful as a blocker for tough melee damage dealers. also, maybe toss a ranged summon in there somewhere.
"I use the summons as support or a distraction."
yeah, well, then that makes you a wizard instead of a summoner, ya? I thought the whole point of being a necromancer was to be able to animate the dead. *shrug*
if it were me, not only would I make the summon line more complex and deep, I would make a subpath that deals with reanimating dead enemies. After all, Beastlords can tame beasts, and other have abilities to charm twisted, and there is even a mod that lest you tame dragons. It would be pretty cool if you could reanimate enemy undead.
maybe it would be based on the strength of the opponent you want to reanimate. if you take level one of the skill, it would let you reanimate a weak-medium strength enemy, level 2 for strong enemies, and level 3 for deadly.
also, the chance to reanimate and control would be dependent on the enemy's spell resistance (yeah, even though they're dead).
would have to be a tough task, so maybe spell resistance is doubled for purposes of testing against chance to be reanimated, and have it be an expensive spell that takes at least a turn to cast. it would be a marker spell, so you cast it on your target first, while it is alive, then kill it and hope it reanimates for you.
since dragons have over 60 resistance, doubling that to 120 would make sure that you'd have to have a really high spell power to overcome the resistance with a reasonable chance (above 150 at least). Something like an ogre (with negative spell resistance) would be childsplay. Also, standard lore has it that the thing you want to reanimate has to be composed of flesh and bone, so no elementals.
anywho, just some thoughts. I had hoped that necromancy itself would be the key feature here.
hope you continue to have fun modding it
"nope. first playthrough, using summoned skeletons and zombies. the spell animates properly (you see the spell animation over the targets), but just has no effect. doesn't matter how many times I cast it.
Is it only supposed to work on units you train in your cities? seems odd."
__
Hmm. It should work with any undead whether summoned or trained. For the DLC04 units you need the compatibility patch though. I tried to reproduce your problem myself, but it was working fine on summoned units for me. I only tried with summon skeletal horde, though. Do you remember exactly which summon spell it wasn't working with? They all draw from the same pool of units, but it might help me hunt down any possible problems.
__________
"I figured you had gotten the idea from other games that had explodable summons (there are a couple I recall having that, but can't recall the names now)."
__
Pretty much! A lot of games have corpse explosion type of spells, but since bodies aren't persistent in the combat in this game, I had to improvise a little bit.
__________
"yeah, well, then that makes you a wizard instead of a summoner, ya? I thought the whole point of being a necromancer was to be able to animate the dead. *shrug*"
__
A necromancer is not just a summoner. Although many games do focus on that aspect. The first "spirit" branch in the trait tree represents the augury aspect of necromancy, which is a more historical interpretation. Using the magic to commune with the spirits of the dead and so forth. The middle tree is using necromancy as a tool for reanimation, and the last tree was using anatomical knowledge combined with necromancy to get results. That said, I'm never against putting more skills into a branch, so the reanimation branch with probably get some more love.
__________
"if it were me, not only would I make the summon line more complex and deep, I would make a subpath that deals with reanimating dead enemies. After all, Beastlords can tame beasts, and other have abilities to charm twisted, and there is even a mod that lest you tame dragons. It would be pretty cool if you could reanimate enemy undead.
maybe it would be based on the strength of the opponent you want to reanimate. if you take level one of the skill, it would let you reanimate a weak-medium strength enemy, level 2 for strong enemies, and level 3 for deadly. no way to reanimate epic level enemies
also, the chance to reanimate and control would be dependent on the enemy's spell resistance (yeah, even though they're dead).
would have to be a tough task, so maybe spell resistance is doubled for purposes of testing against chance to be reanimated, and have it be an expensive spell that takes at least a turn to cast. it would be a marker spell, so you cast it on your target first, while it is alive, then kill it and hope it reanimates for you.
since dragons have over 60 resistance, doubling that to 120 would make sure that you'd have to have a really high spell power to overcome the resistance with a reasonable chance (above 150 at least). Something like an ogre (with negative spell resistance! would be childsplay. Also, standard lore has it that the thing you want to reanimate has to be composed of flesh and bone, so no elementals."
__
Actually, the high level spell "Awaken" attempts to kill enemies and reanimate them! I've also been trying to get a spell to work that would damage living creatures and attempt to control undead units. I could simplify it and get it to work easily with just being able to control undead and nothing else, but it would not be all that useful. Anyways, I'm always in the process of changing things and adding new spells and stuff when they occur to me, and I can get them to work within the game's framework.
Unfortunately all we can do for modding in this game is add new art and modify game data. There's no scripting capability at all, which means if there isn't already a spell or ability that does what you want, you can't just add it on your own. This can hurt a lot sometimes. For instance, there's no way to target every unit on a battlefield.
Thanks again for taking the time to give your feedback. I always love talking necromancy! ...maybe too much... Hope we can get explosive deanimation issue sorted out.
I do not have the DLC for the undead, and am not using your compatibility version. I am using several other mods though:
-Add faction traits mod (version 3h)
-Black Market Bizarre (compatible with heroic pursuits/COS version)
-Champion Bonanza
-Dragon Taming
-Dragon friend
-Heroic Pursuits
-More Weaknesses
-Riverbridge
-Tax mod (just adjusts values of taxes on unrest)
that's it.
can't figure where anything would be interferring with that spell working, but if I have time, I'll try remove mods one at a time and see if it has an effect.
cheers
EDIT: I tried out ED and it works fine with every summon on my end. I cast the spell, and the ability is added to all the undead units on the field under my control. The ability that is added also works (makes the unit detonate).
I can't find anything at all on my end. If you come across anything or get it working, let me know!
...yes, I see you have the basic idea with the awaken spell, but instead of skeletons, why not have it reanimate whatever it kills as the thing it killed? that would make it a much more interesting high level skill.
edit: yay! working now. turned out I had made a modification myself to one of the other mods that was somehow interfering with yours. only figured it out after I replaced all the mods with their original versions.
yeah... I tinker a lot. maybe more than I even play the game
It would be awesome if I could have an undead version of whatever was killed. I'm not sure it's possible though, since I haven't been able to make branching flow control work at all (believe me I've tried). I've been playing with their new comparison logic trying to get some stuff to work with no luck at all.
muhahahaha.
now to destroy the world...
ah. yeah, I guess you'd actually have to make an entire new class of beasties that are exact duplicates of every beastie there is, except undead versions.
yeah, I can see that would just be too much work.
how about this then:
when you kill an enemy with awaken, what gets summoned in its place is permanent, and dependent on the enemy strength level. so, weak to medium enemies get skellies or zombies, strong enemies get wraiths or liches, deadly enemies get grave golems or demiliches (if you have researched the "forbidden knowledge" )
that would work, since you already have all the models?
or, hell, if that's still not possible, maybe just add a tame undead ability in the path somewhere. then you could just tame any undead unit you see in the wilds. that should be in there somewhere anyway; probably add it to the sovereign abilities tree, so you can choose that instead of something like beastlord?
btw, every time I mentioned wraith? I meant banshee. damn brain malfunctions.
last request: liches need to be able to ride mounts if available. you don't want one of your best units limited to 2 square walking. maybe have limited design choices? can change mount and equipment, but not weapons or armor.
huh. I see in your files that you have "can be designed" enabled, just like for skellies.
but they do not appear in the design list, nor do the spectres. the skeletons and zombies do however.
...ah, it's the uniquebuildable trait that stops design.
*yoink*
now my liches ride black horses.
hmm. I'm thinking the thing to do with liches is to make them into henchmen. it takes a long time to research to make them, and they aren't groupable so... why not?
I could use an apprentice or two...
As for the "charming" of undead. I've already been playing around with a spell that does that. I wanted it to be more interesting than just charming undead though, since it would basically be a nerfed version of Domination. I was going to release it with the last update, but I still was never able to get the thing working the way that I wanted it to.
Making the Liches editable would require making a new unittype for them since I wouldn't want to just use an existing one because other armors and stuff would be buggy. Not sure if I'm going to do that or not since it's a pretty large amount of work for not that big of a return!
they look fine on a horse; all the animations still work correctly. the weapon you chose for them is better than any that can be researched anyway (at least for ranged), so nobody is going to want to change that, that leaves armor, which, since the traits are still locked, you can only add robes, which again, look fine on them.
the equipment you can add is quite limited in effect, since you can't group them. I'd recommend just losing the unique build trait for these guys.
leave the spectres though. they make excellent scouts just as they are.
-designable
-brilliant, and start off with a 10 point higher base magic power* (spells were too easily resisted, even at high levels before).
-30% magic resistance (liches were typically highly magic resistant in every rpg ever.
now they're worth the cost IMO.
modding is fun.
*this reminds me... there is a building (and research) to boost your units accuracy, but there isn't one for magic power. maybe add a building that does that for this faction?
ooh. one more thought... you know how slavelords get extra population when they win battles against humans?
how about instead, that the undead get cuts to unit production time of current undead units for every human battle they win? So, say you are producing a group of zombies, and it's going to take 10 turns at 5 production/turn. you kill a group of 6 humans, and that adds the equivalent of 1 production point per human, thus speeding up the process of producing your zombies by about one turn.
What you're describing with the buildings and the undead faction stuff is really similar to the Dead World DLC.
Just so you know, you've made a positive impact on this mod. I just got done making Liches customizable. But I added their own unit model type. This let me flag just the things I want them to be able to equip. I also turned all of their abilities into trainable options for them (there are 4, I just always left out counterspell so they could be trainable). Now the player gets to pick which three spells the Lich has, or he can sub a standard ability if he wants. I might add some more Lich unique gear for them too before I actually end up releasing this thing.
I also added a leveling ramp up on their spell resistance, spell power, and spell damage multiplier.
btw... I think I have found the most overpowered army... ever.
my deathmage, an archfiremage, plus a greatwolf, plus 3 juggernauts!
for some weird reason, the random large map I'm playing has escaped juggernauts all over the place. must be at least a half dozen of them.
since I had picked enthrall twisted, it was a bit too easy to get an army of them.
wolf howls (it's level 10, btw)...
firemage casts graveseal on primary target, I cast zombie horde around target, juggernauts wade in and use the swarm bonus from the zombies to increase their accuracy... nothing, but nothing lasts longer than a turn. not a dragon, not an elmental lord. nothing.
sweet zombie jesus it's overpowered!
still, how often are you going to run into a map that is overflowing with escaped juggernauts?
PS, thanks for keeping old versions to download, since I could go back and check out the Banshee vs the Spectre.
This would be in code, not in-game of course.
I figured there's no reason to take older versions down in case anyone wants to use them, so I'll do it until Nexus stops me!
EDIT: I could not replicate what you're describing. Could you give a little more detail (Faction type, Race type, etc.)
Have you made any edits to the XML at all? Specifically the <UnitType InternalName="RR_Skeleton"> block in RR_Units.xml?
If you add more than 4 <SelectedAbilityBonusOption> entries, the unit will not show up in the train list.
Cheers
Thanks for the endorsement!
If you're talking about the abilities that the creatures have; I wanted to combine them so I could fit all (or most in the Liches case) of their abilities in with them still being build-able. Really the skeleton is the only case where it would make a difference since that's the design-able unit, but I fill like not having all of the slots open for ability adds is a good counterbalance. Of course I'm open to discussion on the balance of all these things, so if something feels too strong or too weak, let me know!
Sincerely,
-DG
Adding butchermen and haunters is a great idea, and would not be difficult! If I add more units, I would probably have to increase the point cost of the Reanimation Rituals ability in the faction creator to keep it balanced, so I have to make sure that I add enough to keep it balanced. I will look into adding the rest of the undead creatures in the game.
I have been toying around with a mod that would add a sequence to allow the player's sovereign to become a Lich. I was a little stuck on what that could mean gameplay-wise. Just adding some spells or abilities might not be worth it, and the sovereign already has one of the Liches more powerful perks (when they die, they reconstitute elsewhere). If you have any ideas, feel free to share! Aside from that, I think it is impossible to change a creature's type and/or appearance once it already exists in the game. There is no scripting API available to modders (which pretty much means that if you don't see a system or function in the game in some form, there is a good chance it's not possible). Having said all that, Lichedom is my favorite goal in RPG's (it was always my goal when playing D&
It's just me working on this right now, and unfortunately I am not an artist. So custom armor for the skeletons is not possible at this time. Same with the zombies (they would need new art).
Building and spell additions are definitely possible, but out of the scope of this mod (I'm working on a necromancy specific spell mod right now, as for building additions, I just have to wait for some inspiration!). My current goal is to make separate mods for those things that each work well alone (in case someone doesn't want one of them), but also work well together!
Again, thanks for the input and suggestions. Glad you're enjoying it so far!
I have many, but many suggestions for this modular game, people aren't aware, but this game to be the best "adaptable" one, you can create almost anything.
What of now sir, is the lack of AI using the units, I've created a Quendar Empire, but they are only using the slaves, not the custom units, which in a way, is quite frustrating, in a game, they were like 1000 the power in Elemental, and I was like 860, but I get the Dragonlogy tech, and conquered all that Empire's territories, and the AI, just proud and high about how his armies were at my gates considering I've just devored half of his forces in one battle :/
AI need to use the units, it is essential, there are some Warlocks, Dark Mages that would be nice if added to the RR Ability, also tapping into necromancy, I've always played necromacer, or dark game in almost any game that had space for it, I think you could add some special weapon, or staff, or armor for the Lichdom and increase some stats, imbued by dark energies, mind control and other functions.
For Buildings, an exemple could the "Graveyard", an improvement giving boost to the undead and allowing more types to be created, Dark Temple to allow Dark Mages that casts Dark Firebolts, "Necromancy Laboratory" to allow undead improvements like special poisoned weapons, curses, also there are some plagued creatures, plague is also a form of necromancy; like blood, shadows, flesh.
Also if you're willing, I have suggestions for other mods, akin to this and the "Arcane Artificer", creating "Golems", constructs, creatures in the game lore like the shrills, crag spawns, elementals, and buildings or perks required to create them. In fact, I'm very interested in the golem part of it, Arcane Artificer mod failed to top it's greatness, like adding scrap golems, and other golems that was necessary to add. Also creating building improvements are quite easy if you've hit the Workshop already.
To be frank when I played the game for the first time I thought I could at least bind, most of the creatures to my command, or use cities to create them, but only race or professions could do that, not matter how magical advanced your Empire/Kingdom was, you couldn't build Scrap golems nor raise the dead, I hate when a game forces that, I know it is to balance the game, but it kinda limited it, but no sorry here, they gave us tools to change that.
Also some buildings to recruit bandits, captains wouldn't hurt the Bandit Lord Perk, it's kinda useless that perk, you hardly see a bandit in the game if you haven't spawn near where they spawn, and custom improvements, like Extortion and Tolls, and even chances of recruiting the Sydicate would be nice.
Also The "Binding" faction trait could be improved, the demons aren't that baddass. I was wishing we could Imps or Lesser Demons summoned at cities, or by a custom building, it did not :/
Also on the abilities part of it, they could be very useful if specific; All the time I have to wait a Fort to create my armies, I wish I could do it all on the field, while towns get other improvements, if add a spell to raise the dead or a ability to allow the Sovereigh to construct some creatures on field, it would be quite good. Also the Butchermen is some sort of Zombie.
Also you could add spells, some Death Spell on map mode that can cast to damage and curse entire army depending how much Death Crystal player has, a Shadow shield that leeches health if the caster is melee attacked
About the AI not using these units kinda upsets me, went through the files, and most mods are player-only? that means that only I can create the units?
Thank you for replying quickly, I can't get enough, created a Wraith Faction with RR, skeletons are kinda cannon fodder at start, but they get better as we improve, it was great of you, I can't wait to see what you're brewing up next.
Sincerely,
-DG
Let me know if you have any issues, questions or suggestions!