During the time when paid modding was active, and in the aftermath, two things became very clear; a lot of users on the Nexus didn't know it was even possible to donate money to their favourite mod authors, and the amount of money donated to mod authors was so negligible it bordered on the pointless for almost all mod authors (we're talking a couple of dollars over the course of a 2 year period, even for some of the "big" mods...). We want to try and fix that, to get the word out more about completely voluntary donations while maintaining a certain degree of conformity and professionalism for mod pages.
Before paid modding the donation system was very simple. Mod authors put their Pay Pal email address into their Nexus site preferences and decided whether to turn on a donation button on their file and profile pages. The donation button is in the top-right hand corner of the file page, where the Download, Track and Endorse buttons are also placed. Lots of users missed this.
Accompanying that were a strict set of rules in our terms of service that state, categorically, that mod authors cannot, under any circumstances, ask for or even mention donations anywhere on the site. The main reason for this rule was quite simple; as it stands right now a lot of mod authors already fail to describe what their mod actually does anywhere near the top of their file descriptions. In between huge images, change logs, the latest news about their files/their life/their cats, what they will and won't provide support on and so on and so forth, it's sometimes extremely difficult to find an actual description of the author's mod. What I didn't want was mod authors asking for/demanding donations and giving running commentaries of their donor lists within their file descriptions and sticky comment sections, further muddying what should be an easy to read and understand section of a mod author's file page.
Similarly, we didn't want situations where mod authors withheld functionality that was only for people who donated, or started doing "updates for cash". The idea that the author will update their mod when the donation amount reaches a specific threshold. That's not what the Nexus is about and if mod authors did want to do that they could do that elsewhere. But not here.
This is something we, the people working on the Nexus, can help with by providing mod authors a dedicated area on their file pages to talk about donations. A nice widget or box somewhere on their file page, prominent, but not overbearing and instantly in the user's face, where the mod author can talk about their donations, track and thank their donors and explain what they'll use it for. But right now, with the current design, we just don't have the room to accommodate that. We could make another tab on the file page for donations, but would it be used? Would it really? It's something we'll be working on for our site redesign, but that's not going to be out for a good while yet.
The Nexus has a lot of users who "skirt the rules" already, sitting in a grey area where they know it's a bit naughty, but it's not going to get them into any trouble. I feel if we relaxed the rules on talking about donations, without giving authors a dedicated area to talk about them, then we'd increase our moderator workload substantially, as well as the ensuing drama when we have to make judgement calls on whether what's been written about donations does or doesn't break our ToS. And for that reason, right now, our rules remain the same on soliciting donations.
During and after the paid modding fiasco we altered our donation system slightly. Mod authors can now choose to show users who've already downloaded their file a small pop-up box before they try to download another file on the page. This box informs the user about donations and asks them whether they'd like to donate. The idea being, if you've already downloaded one of the files on a file page and go to download it again, it's likely the reason you're downloading one of the other files on the page is because you're downloading an update to the mod, or an optional file, and you actually liked/use the mod in your game. Similarly, the author can choose to show the same pop-up box when someone chooses to endorse the mod. Once again, the idea being that if you endorse a mod, you like the mod, are you're more likely to actually donate to the author because of that.
Like the donation button, these options are completely voluntary and the mod author can choose to enable, one, two, three or none of the options at the same time.
The inherent problem with the current system is, simply, that it's limited in its scope when compared to platforms like Patreon or Flattr. These platforms are specifically designed for exactly what I'm talking about in this post. From the ground up, they make it fast and easy to donate to your favourite creative people and give them financial support if you so choose. In short, they'd be perfect to implement into the Nexus.
And I'd love to. I mean that. It'd take all the hassle out of us making our own donation systems and we could pass it on to tried and tested platforms that work brilliantly already.
But I can't.
After paid modding failed miserably, donations were talked about a lot both publically and in our private mod author forums. Lots of brainstorming occured on how we could get the word out better. A lot of people agreed (some didn't, mind you!) that systems like Patreon and Flattr would be perfect. I said I would be more than happy to implement them into the Nexus, provided that Bethesda would be OK with the idea and wouldn't send their legion of lawyers after us.
Anyone who reads the gaming news will know, Bethesda's lawyers are trigger happy as f'. In recent years they've sued Mojang, of Minecraft fame, over the use of the name "Scrolls". They've sued Interplay, originally owners of the Fallout IP, over the use of Fallout. They've sued an indie dev for trying to use the game name "Fallout Fortress". And they've sued the Oculus Rift people over the use of "trade secrets". They clearly like using lawyers. I'd rather not lose this entire site over mod author donations.
I encouraged mod authors who were interested in Flattr and/or Patreon to contact Bethesda about the topic and get their take on it. Initial reports back were not good or positive and the general consensus was that Bethesda had said no. The topic was laid to rest.
Then, a few of months back, a site called "Sprked" cropped up, looking to become a Patreon style platform specifically designed for modding and activities of a similar ilk. They began contacting and messaging a lot of mod authors on the Nexus about using their site, but didn't send a message to me about it. I sent them a message asking them to stop doing it immediately. Not only was it spammy, but if mod authors attempted to mention using the service on the Nexus they'd have received a warning, as it would have been seen as soliciting donations. I explained the situation to the person I spoke to at Sprked, that Bethesda seemingly didn't want such a system implemented, but I told them I'd contact Bethesda personally to get to the bottom of it.
So I got in contact with GStaff, the community manager over at Bethesda, to get to the bottom of the issue once and for all. I'll quote the messages I sent to GStaff on the topic, so you can see what I said, but I won't quote GStaff, out of respect, as I have not asked for or had his permission to do so.
Hi Matt,
I hope you're well.
I wanted to give you a heads up on a new site that's just launched called Sprked. It's basically a Kickstarter/Patreon monetisation site tailored specifically for mods. It features Bethesda games, images and IP quite prominently.
I know a user called <redacted for privacy> contacted you after the Skyrim Workshop paid modding situation to ask if Patreon would be OK for mod authors. From what the mod authors had gathered you had indicated Bethesda would not be OK with such a system. Is this correct? I ask, as it's something we would have explored implementing in to the Nexus if you hadn't made it relatively clear to <redacted for privacy> that you weren't OK with it. It's something we would not implement if Bethesda were not happy with the idea, especially if it would sour things between us, and because of this we haven't pursued the idea any further. It's also something we have actively prevented mod authors from advertising on their file pages on the Nexus, which has essentially "nipped it in the bud" as without our authorisation it's practically impossible for them to get the word out about it to their users.
We have extremely strict/tight rules on mod authors asking for donations. Mod authors cannot specifically ask for donations in their file descriptions, they can't offer "perks" for donations and they can only use our generically written donation text, which links to a user's Pay Pal account. The Nexus never, ever, touches donation money. As such, we've informed the creators of Sprked that we will not allow them to contact mod authors about the service/advertise their service on the Nexus until we've heard back from you on the topic, simply because it's against our TOS for mod authors to advertise such services on their file pages at this time. That rule will not change unless you/Bethesda make it clear that such things would be deemed "OK".
If you could shine a light on this rather precarious situation, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Robin
The response I received was one line long and informed me that it was something that Bethesda cannot support.
Unfortunately, GStaff's answer didn't really answer my original question. I wasn't looking for Bethesda to support it, I was writing to make sure if the Nexus supported it, Bethesda wouldn't have a problem with it. I clarified the situation:
Hi GStaff,
Welcome back from what I assume was a busy week last week.
Unfortunately this is something the mod authors are pushing me heavily for so I kind of need a little better wording on this one (sorry!). When you say "it's not something we can support" I don't know whether you mean it's just something Bethesda aren't going to support themselves, on their own sites/services (e.g. Bethesda.NET, the forums and Skyrim Workshop) or whether it's something which, if the Nexus did support it, Bethesda would be unhappy about/come after the Nexus either legally or with a blanket ban on Nexus related use?
Sounds extreme, I know, but when Bethesda opened the Pandora's box that was paid modding all this other stuff came out with it and we, at the Nexus, are coming under pressure to do more to support mod authors from a donation stand-point when we're utterly unsure how far we can go without you, Bethesda, getting upset. Hence this message.
Thanks for your time.
GStaff's answer was to say that yes, it would be problematic if we were to pursue Patreon or Flattr-esque systems on the Nexus, and that was that.
GStaff did not go into any further detail as to why it would be problematic if the Nexus used Patreon or Flattr and frankly, I didn't ask because I didn't want to push any further. You can speculate on the reasons yourselves. I imagine if they were pushed they'd likely quote the tried and tested "legal complications" with such an idea. Though why there'd be legal complications over Patreon/Flattr but not straight-up Pay Pal donations, which Bethesda signed off on personally when I asked them for permission to implement that system after Skyrim's release, I don't know.
It's also been widely reported in the gaming press that Bethesda will be revisiting paid modding at some point after Fallout 4's release and I think we can all safely assume that they're going to be gearing towards such a system on their Bethesda.net site, which they've been talking about a lot as well. Such a system would effectively allow them to cut out Valve as the middleman, accommodate an interesting push in to console modding, and either ensure they can maximise their profit as much as possible, or allow Valve's original cut to go to the mod authors. I freaking hope they're going for the second of those two options. Irrespective, I've no idea if the fact they want to revisit paid modding in the not too distant future has any bearing on their decision to say no to Patreon or Flattr on the Nexus, but I think it's similarly possible.
In light of the fact they've said no, I think what upsets me most, personally, is the seeming irony of Bethesda's stance on the topic of paid modding. They've said time and again that they believe mod authors should be allowed to be compensated for their work, but they forget to add their caveat to that statement; that they seemingly want mod authors to be compensated for their work, provided they can take a cut. And heck, I completely understand why they believe they deserve a cut. It's their game, their platform, from which mod authors would be making money. It's entirely reasonable for them to take a cut (how much of a cut is still open to debate, though!). What I don't appreciate is the fact they try and paint it like they're doing it for the mod authors out of the charity of their own hearts. It just seems really silly.
As I said, this is something I really wanted to get behind for mod authors. It seemed so simple and easy to implement that it was a no brainer. But we can't, and for that, I'm sorry.
I wanted to set the record straight on this topic as I still get contacted about it regularly even today. It was also mentioned a lot in our recent site survey that 25,000 users were kind enough to fill in, and I still see a lot of posts on other sites wondering why we haven't done more. The reason why we haven't done more is because our hands seem to be tied.
If you have any ideas about how we can make donations more prominent and friendly to mod users while using a simple donation system over something more expansive, like Patreon and Flattr, then by all means get in contact or leave us a comment. We're all ears on trying to help out mod authors more, without the potential for getting sued to hell and back.
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A moderator has closed this comment topic for the time beingYeah, what he said...... And all one long paragraph? I doubt anyone is going to actually try and read that.....
1) Since mod authors are often not provided ownership of their mods by EULA's, their efforts must be seen as being provided the compensation and not the mod itself.
a) As a result, payments and sponsorships could/are considered compensation for the mod by companies like Bethesda thus are frowned upon so appreciation must focus on the author's time and efforts personally.
b) The ideal solution is like Twitch "cheers" where people with no connection to the game get compensated for the entertainment they provide from their work.
c) Providing money through Nexus does not force mod support by the author but "purchasing" a mod from a game originator like Bethesda for their "deserved cut" is not going to be perceived similarly by gamers so there is benefit to a modder to choose donations option over "sales".
d) One compensation method could be a mod dedicated full page "Youtubish" ad prior to any download by users not making donations that meets some kind of popularity or approval criteria?
2) Microtransactions like Twitch "cheers" are imperative for donations as it allows a mod user to fine tune the amount of "mod overhead" value that a person would be willing to spend over the cost of the game to improve it.
a) Minimums like $1.00 are bad as very few people whom use over 50 mods are going to be willing to spend $50+ dollars above the cost of the game to customize it the way they wish it was originally designed.
- If Mod makers charge specific prices/values they risk looking greedy and over valuing their work thus tarnishing their efforts and modding as a result based on download quantity.
- Minimum $1.00 charges feel like a payment and people will feel like they have the right to demand support and compatibility as Bethesda will find out if/when they implement their mod store.
- Minimums also will force overcompensation or avoidance of smaller mods that are nice but not prominent game changers which will have equally negative repurcussions whether charging for it as Bethesda may try or even when donating to it.
b) People are much more willing to give when the amount seems trivial and in quantity trivial becomes significant plus even trivial monetary support can be very incentivizing to mod authors.
c) Like Twitch "cheers", the donator should be recognized in some way for their generosity in the community and/or on the actual mod page listing of mod supporters and/or other benefits on Nexus.
d) Discretion and anonymizing contributions/endorsements should be a considered option so that "wierd" or adult level mods don't lose out due to the fear or stigma of linking user credentials or hacking exposure.
e) Contributions must be as easy as Twitch as going to every mod Paypal account to donate is very off putting as the time loss and invested effort is felt worse than any consideration of money spent.
f) The "Toll Road" model could be used to initiate Nexus use above a certain number of downloads where you put a ($5.00?) minimum into your "Nexus Appreciation Reserve" that is used for "micro-appreciations" where a $.10+ appreciation and/or endorsements are required for a previous download after 5 new downloads or in lieu of watch a full screen ad like on YouTube provided to mod author of users choice[as an example].
g) Placing a "Coffee $" button on each mod page to make an easy one click donation of money might help support giving and put modding into perspective on the effort and energy required.
h) Being able to put in a maximum modding amount like $10 for a specific game and distribute it to all the mods you have endorsed/used for a game is also appealing in its ease of contributing as it is a SINGLE quick financial transaction and not an onerous giving process for people whom use many mods.
i) Being able to mass contribute from the Modding Manager with a SINGLE simple financial transaction where each person most likely focuses on the value of each of the mods to them personally would also be an ideal and easy way to show appreciation as they see and witness the modding benefits every time they play the game so then the Modding Manager could/should recognize visually the appreciation of the giving with some method generically or per modder custom message that makes the person feel the good they have done every time they run the game. (ie. Coffee button next to each installed mod maybe?)
j) With microtransactions you can willingly support 50 mods for $5 which is difficult for anyone to deny being able to do who can afford a computer and the game to be modded.
k) Twitch has proven that people can work from a donation only business model but the ease and "feelgood" acknowledgement incentives to the donators need to be put into place.
l) If Nexus wanted to avoid the financial obligations/infrastructure, I'm sure Amazon wouldn't mind a partnership where Nexus uses their "cheers" system since they charge a profit overhead for the "cheers" but this could be money that helped also support the Nexus site.
3) The idea of voluntarily rewarding a modder's time and effort is still much more appealing than having the game developers gaining compensation for their failures and lack of features in a game thus having a conflict of interest in offloading their responsibilities and also benefitting from them but it requires the minimalist amount of pain and effort to make the process a completed transaction rather than just a passing consideration of something that should be done at some future point when they wouldn't rather be playing the game.
4) With simply the endorsing of mods being very low, the assumption is that only a percentage of the actual endorsers would likely provide any financial appreciation to the modders. This may have some creedence but it also might be a misunderstanding of the value or importance of "endorsing" and what it actually means. Does it mean it works perfectly, was easy to install, a reference of things I personally like or a reference of something that improves or fixes the game itself? What if you like it conceptually but it was buggy and hard to get to work with your other mods? Do you endorse? What if it was mostly good but had some issues or one annoying flaw? This ambiguity makes "endorsing" something that may be more desirable to avoid as it also seemingly has little beneficial impact that the number of downloads and comments wouldn't also serve as a clearer and simpler endorsement.
In summary, Twitch has proven that the donation model can work but the infrastructure where both sides feel the reward and the ease of the process has to be put in place to make it enticing and mutually beneficial. The contributors need to see evidence that they are appreciated and it will make a difference to the quality of modding without making it an expectation that destroys the orginal benevolent community based culture of modding. One thing Twitch has proved is that giving begets giving so people must not see it as uncommon or out of the ordinary or they will feel that way about it so people need to see the "appreciation" others give to reinforce a culture of support. I think the greed seen from the Bethesda/Steam fiasco has done much damage to the perception of goodwill in the modding community but not irrepairably so that people can't get some compensation for their efforts without looking to get rich using abusive corporate power. The way it is done now on Nexus requires you to be adamant about donating to get it done rather than just a modest desire to show appreciation and that might as well be like crossing the Grand Canyon in getting actual donation results especially for users with many mods ironically.
Granted it depends on the mod.
I did click on one site on nexus, the pop up indicated it wanted payment in dollars, it had the $ sign. Giving exchange rate fluctuations and charges for transferring currencies I was a little uneasy as to what to give.
Regards Jim
I'm all for donations. If people donate, that's awesome, bonus. If they don't and you can't handle that, then you'd better get out of the modding scene because modding for donations is like busking on the street corner. You'll never make a living from it and if you're serious about it, you try to get a band together and start playing bigger shows and becoming more professional ie. study programming and become a game developer so that you can make money doing something you love without expecting this fast paced busy world to stop and notice you and drop some change into your hat. The fact that this conversation is even still going on is ridiculous and some people need to get off their high horses and realise that they're not the greatest thing in the world because they figured out how to use the Creation Kit or add a couple of textures. If they're really motivated, they'll do something about it. If they really think they can take the easy way out in life and make a living from modifying someone else's hard work, let them get scraps and let them learn how the real world works.
Mods for more supportive companies could then have donations allowed through Patreon or Flattr. Assuming it does ok, that would incentivize either Bethesda to get their s*** together to support modder contributions themselves, or for them to officially bless Patreon and Flattr on the nexus in support of the modding community.
Just because at the moment Bethesda doesn't like it, I'm not quite seeing why the option should be taken away from the rest of the modding community that might not even be interested in modding Bethesda games.
". Such a system would effectively allow them to cut out Valve as the middleman, accommodate an interesting push in to console modding, and either ensure they can maximise their profit as much as possible, or allow Valve's original cut to go to the mod authors"
Oh wait, that's exactly what is being discussed.
"Just because at the moment Bethesda doesn't like it, I'm not quite seeing why the option should be taken away from the rest of the modding community that might not even be interested in modding Bethesda games."
Read: "Bethesda's lawyers are trigger happy as f'"
Seriously, please read the OP first, I understand what you're trying to get at, but you're quite a few points behind it, frankly.
If it's not implemented for Bethesda properties, then why should their lawyers even take an interest? The fact that Bethesda doesn't want Patreon or Flattr should have no relevance to someone wanting to mod The Witcher 3 or some other game not done by Bethesda.
Unless Bethesda somehow financially supports the nexus in some way I'm not aware.