Dragon Age 2

Update on NMM version 0.60 and FAQ

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Yesterday we released version 0.60 of NMM, which, as the announcement said, is a major update to the way NMM handles files.

While the update seems to have worked for a lot of people (as in, they installed it, NMM successfully migrated their files to the new system, and everything continued as normal), it also doesn't seem to have worked for some others. We're struggling to actually ascertain how many people it hasn't worked for because most people are focusing on sending us insults, hate, or, in some cases, death threats (yes, death threats...I can't help but laugh at the stupidity of it). Right now we know about 8,200 people have installed the latest build, of which, we've received about 40 bug reports from individual users about issues with 0.60.

First of all I want to thank those 40 individuals who have actually bothered to send us in a bug reports. Some were filled with hate and largely useless to us without more detailed information, but some were really, really excellent, level headed, detailed, and have already helped us to patch up some issues and release hot fixes. Similarly, some have also found ways around some issues and helped others to fix theirs while waiting for hot fixes to come. Again, you folks make us happy and embody what's good about this community. Thank you for your help.

One thing we have learnt from this release is that we need to improve the automatic update mechanism from within NMM. The update mechanism in NMM has been gimped for a long time after it was discovered, a couple of years ago, that it was inadvertently DDoSing our own web servers with the sheer number of people logging in to and using NMM with constant update queries. We pulled back the functionality a lot to prevent that from happening again. However, since that change, some things have changed in our server architecture (i.e. moving to our Cloud setup) that now make it more viable to make the update mechanism better. Specifically, we need to change it so you can see what's being changed/updated in an update before you can decide whether to download the update or not.

Frankly, I've been quite surprised at the sheer amount of people that have been blindly downloading and updating their NMM without checking the site news or change logs first. Of course, we take some responsibility, as noted above, for not providing that changelog within NMM's update mechanism itself. Hence why we need to change it, and change it fast.

It's also become obvious that we once again need to clarify the fact that NMM has always been in public Beta. That's not something we just say, it's written in big bold letters on the splash screen every single time you start the program up. When we release updates we release them on the pretense that first adopters, like any Beta software, are helping us to test the software. If you want to instantly install any new update to NMM as soon as it comes out then you do so in full knowledge that the changes made could inadvertently negatively affect your mod installation. If you didn't know that, despite the fact the word "Beta" is plastered all over the NMM download page and software, with clear warnings of what is involved with being in a Beta, then, guys...you need to read up about what you're actually installing on your PC before you do it! We're looking for help with our Betas. If you don't want to help and just want a stable piece of software to mod your game with then don't sit on the bleeding edge of the updates of NMM. Hold back and let the others who do want to help do their work. This is how we do things, it's how we've always done things these past four years since NMM's initial release. The system is going to change when we bring NMM out of Beta, but until then, that's how it'll remain.

There's still a lot of confusion in the air about the release of version 0.60, so I'll address them in a simple FAQ setup.



Q. Why did you release a piece of software to the general public that you knew would cause problems?

To put it bluntly, we didn't. In that we didn't know it would cause problems. For version 0.60 of NMM we tested internally, between the two NMM programmers and myself, before releasing it as an alpha in January of this year. 40,000 people downloaded that alpha and provided us with feedback, which we used to fix any bugs that were reported to us. After many months of being practically bug free, we released version 0.60 in to the beta yesterday.

This is exactly how the beta process is supposed to work. When we can't find any bugs we release it to others to help with testing. In the case of version 0.60 we wanted to have some more extensive testing done before doing a Beta release to the majority of NMM users, hence the Alpha. Once the Alpha was no longer reporting any significant issues, we released into Beta.



Q. If you didn't know this many people would have issues, why *are* so many people having issues?

We honestly can't work out how many people this version has been successful for because so few people are actually reporting bugs instead of sending us hate mail.

Really, it comes down to the practically infinite number of variations in people's PC hardware setups, software setups, game setups and mod setups. It is absolutely impossible to account for the sheer number of these variations and we're seeing, from the bug reports, some pretty weird things from how people have setup their systems and mod folders. It's the equivalent of turning up for work and not being prepared for a man-size duck attacking you with an axe. Funnily enough, you didn't think that could ever even be a possibility...

Major software companies spend millions (and millions) of dollars to make use of extremely advanced clusters of computers that try to account for every single one of these permutations and variables. Unfortunately, we don't have millions (and millions) of dollars. Hence why NMM uses Alpha and Beta testing and reactive updating to make it more stable.



Q. Why didn't you warn us that this update required major changes to the way NMM works/uninstalls and attempts to reinstall my mods? Why wasn't it in big red font?

I've address why the warning wasn't in the update mechanism from within NMM already. That's our bad for not making the information more readily available before presenting you with the chance to update, mixed with your bad for not checking up on what the update actually included before installing it.

There were two warnings during the process on top of the announcement news post which is on the front page of any Nexus site that uses NMM.

The first, in big red and bold font, was during the installation process. Here's a picture of it.

The second was in the initial prompt you need to interact with before version 0.60 will work. This prompt informs you that NMM needs to uninstall all your mods and then asks you a question.

If you click YES, NMM attempts to reinstall all your mods how they were before the update.

If you click NO, NMM will uninstall all your mods and leave you to reinstall your mods how you see fit.

If you click Cancel then none of the above will happen, but you won't be able to use version 0.60, allowing you to gracefully roll-back to your original NMM version through the normal method (installing the last version over the top of the usual NMM location). If you do this, nothing will have been changed and you'll be completely back to normal on the old build of NMM.

The text explains exactly what NMM is going to do. We further clarified in version 0.60.3 that if you select cancel you'll need to reinstall your previous version of NMM.



Q. Where can I download the previous version of NMM from?

The back catalogue of NMM versions all the way back to 0.50 of NMM can be downloaded from the same place they've always been located, on the NMM forums. You can access this thread by going to the forums and clicking the sticky thread, by clicking the version number on the NMM download page, or by searching for "Previous versions of NMM" on Google (or any variation of that search).

The download links are in the spoiler box tagged under the heading "Previous builds".



Q. It says it should take 5 minutes. Mine took A LOT longer than that to complete.

That is my bad. I wrote that "5 minutes" based on my own experience with this update to NMM using around 150 mods and around 20 scripted installers on my own system. Some people have reported much longer setup times depending on the power of their systems and how many mods and the types of mods they have installed. We'll get that changed in the next update of NMM so it's less misleading.



Q. Why are you doing this now?

The simple fact is that this change has long been coming. NMM was completely fresh code back in 2011, but it was based on (and built by the developer of) the Fallout Mod Manager for Fallout 3, which was released in 2008. Ergo, the architecture of NMM is 7 years old and based largely on a specific game engine. It's dated and it needed to be updated at some point so we could continue to move NMM forward.

See it like a major update to some software you've used where documents made in old software no longer work in the new software and need to be transitioned over.

We coded a migration progress for version 0.60 that would attempt to reinstall all your mods exactly how they were in the previous, old, architecture, but for some this migration hasn't worked completely for some people. We thought it would, but it hasn't. It wasn't some sinister plot to f' you over and ruin your day.

It's an extremely complex problem. We need to do this to continue to develop the functionality we want for NMM, but it's causing a nasty "band aid ripping" situation that is unavoidable, despite our best efforts to alleviate it with the migration process.

With the imminent launch of Fallout 4 it seemed prudent to release this version now, at a time when everyone will be starting completely from scratch with their mod installations, while allowing us to fix any niggling bugs that are in 0.60 that weren't revealed in the Alpha test.



Q. I don't care about profiles/I don't want to update my NMM any time soon. Will I be forced to?

No, people won't be forced to update for the foreseeable future. The last time we "forced" an update was version 0.52 of NMM, which was released in August of 2014. We only force updates when versions of NMM present issues with our web servers that require us to "cut off" previous versions from using our web servers for security or integrity reasons.

So when we say "force an update" we actually mean "won't allow you to use the automatic downloading/mod information updating functionality". There are still people using very early versions of NMM who do not require the online parts of NMM, and they have not (and cannot be even if we wanted to) forced to update.

We have no plans to force an update any time soon. And that's not Bethesda speak. We really do mean "we know of no reason why we would do it any time soon".

Having said that, we will no longer be updating the 0.56 branch of code (the previous version before profiles). So 0.56.1 is the final build that does not include profiling. There will be no more bug fixes or functionality updates for that branch, so that branch is now Final. This also means version 0.56.1 and previous versions will not include support for Fallout 4 when it is released. If you want to use NMM with Fallout 4 when it's released then you'll either need to bite the bullet and upgrade to version 0.60, or run two separate installations of NMM. One for your old mod builds, and one for new builds and Fallout 4 (and additional games we may add to NMM in the future).

We have a very small development team of two programmers working on NMM and we cannot spare the resources to continue two branches at once. It's just not feasible for us.

I'll say it once again for people who don't know. NMM is completely open source, so if people want to create forks of NMM following previous branches then they are most definitely allowed to, both with our blessing and with the blessing of the letter of the law. Similarly, if people want to help us with actually developing NMM then we would welcome it as well!



Q. When would be the best time to upgrade?

I'd say, when you're comfortable with the concept of reinstalling some mods (how many seems to completely depend on how the migration process goes and we've not found a pattern as of yet) and when you have the time to do it. For some, the migration procedure is taking mere minutes. Others have claimed it's taken many hours.

A particularly good time would be when you're wanting to do a fresh install of Skyrim (or the game you're playing) with a fresh installation of mods. Or, if you're very secure and comfortable with the process of installing mods properly: any time when you have the time to do it!



Q. I can no longer interact with mods that have scripted installers after I've installed them. How do I redo the options?

NMM now has three mod states; active, inactive and uninstalled.

If a mod is active, it's installed and turned on in your profile so should show in your game.

If it's inactive the mod is installed, but it's not turned on in your current profile so should not show in your game. It may, however, be active in other profiles you have.

If it's uninstalled then the mod is not installed and it's not active in any of your profiles.

When you interact with a scripted installer for a mod it will install the mod with the options you set. If you want to reinstall that mod and go through the scripted installer again you need to uninstall it, not deactivate it. To do so, simply right-click it and select "uninstall". When you go to install the mod again you'll then be prompted with the scripted installer, as per normal.



Q. Mods are now taking up double the space with this version of NMM. Why is this?

The short version: it's not.

The long version: we're using a system in Windows known as hardlinks and symlinks (depending on whether you install to different hard-drives or not, NMM picks the best one for the task). Essentially, these are shortcuts that your operating system uses to stop the duplication of data while still presenting data in multiple folders. For example, your "Documents" folder in windows uses a similar sort of shortcut.

Using this system, NMM installs your mods to a single folder you specify in the settings and then places shortcuts in your game folders pointing to where the mods actually are for the game you're using. The shortcuts in the mod folder look and act exactly how they would if the files themselves were in the mod folder, but they're not. This is what allows us to accommodate multiple profiles without continually installing and uninstalling mods, and in a quicker fashion than manually uninstalling and reinstalling the mods you want to use.

The folder will make it look as though the shortcuts are taking up a lot of space, but they aren't. If you use 1GB of mods then NMM will still only use 1GB of space, not 2GB of space like a quick check might show. The easiest way to test is to check your available hard-drive space. It won't have increased any more than before.



Q. Where do I report bugs?

If you think you've found a bug then please use our bug tracker. The bug tracker (and our forums) use the same login you use for the site, so simply login with your Nexus username and password to post.

There's also a link to it from within NMM, in the top right corner.

Please remember when reporting a bug to make it as detailed as possible. When you post bugs we've got to try and recreate the issue before we can fix it. Therefore the more information you can provide us about how to recreate the bug the more likely it is we'll be able to fix the bug faster.

Good information to tell us is: your operation system, the version of NMM you're using, what you did to trigger the bug, what you were expecting to happen, what actually happened, and the tracelog file (if one was generated). Normally, with this information, we can recreate the bug and fix it, or at least give you some detailed information back about why it's happening.

745 comments

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  1. MalkavianPenguin
    MalkavianPenguin
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    I got the update prompt, but as I didn't want to update I tried hitting cancel. Whenever I hit cancel NMM closes, not letting me do anything until I update... I looked at the part about not updating but it's very hard to understand if you don't know your terms very well. I am just curious as to how I can rollback if/when I want/need to because currently I have switched to Mod Organizer in order to be able to play, but it really has a bunch of limitations that I don't like and it's overcomplicated.
    Thanks in advance!
  2. waffleLegend94
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    I didn't get a prompt for reinstall for skyrim, it just shows a bunch of mods as uninstalled on NMM, but it seems they are still very much active in-game. Got the prompt for NV and F3 though.
  3. medic69
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    ive uninstalled and re installed and i still get same error  it will not finish installing  it say i cannot put the in the same folder so i moved the to another then it said it had to be on the same disk so u put it in a folder on the same disk i still get  permission error  stuck dont know what else to do
     
  4. wingman1
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    Just wanted to take a minute to thank you Dark0ne for the explanation on the problems with the
    newest version of NMM. As it is clearly stated, it is a Beta release so we can therefore not be surprised even something breaks. The purpose of he Beta is to have us regular everyday users find
    and report any bugs so they can be addressed. I do understand though that are some who do get frustrated and it is good to see that you do address their concerns as promptly as you can. Kudos for that! I too had the same problems as many here have had and you have always provided fixes when
    possible and have kept Fallout 4 running as stable as possible. As much as I hate to admit it most of my problems were self inflicted, but I was still able to find the answers that I needed on this forum and
    in the Steam community forums. So a big thank you to your team and keep up the great work!!!!!!
  5. RoastPenguin
    RoastPenguin
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    Hey all,

    ​I am a total Newb when it comes to the concept of modding.

    ​I have only one question; do I need to reopen the NMM every time I want to play Fallout with mods, or are the mods now so well installed that it's just a matter of starting the actual game? 

    ​That is; are the mods permanently installed, until I decide to make changes in NMM again?
     
    Thanks in advance for any replies. =)
    1. Fatalmasterpiece
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      There are several types of mods, primarily sorted into three categories; texture/model replacers, .esp/.esm plugins and scripted mods.

      Replacer mods simply replace a game asset. As long as they are installed correctly you can pretty much install and forget about it.

      Plugins use a .esp/.esm to make changes to the game. Fallout loads these based on a list called "plugins.txt" found in C:\Users\[username]\AppData\Local\Fallout4\plugins.txt (change out C: for your local drive). Basically the list tells Fallout to load these plugins which are actually located in the Fallout4/data folder. Once plugins.txt is correctly ordered and populated with your mods (you can do this manually if you like) you're good until you change something. NMM is just automating this process but it's important to note that plugins.txt must be set to READ ONLY because the standard Fallout 4 launcher will reset it and erase your changes when launching.

      Once you've installed mods like this properly, you can launch the game like normal from Steam or the Fallout.exe and shortcut.

      Finally some scripted mods require a Script Extender which require you to launch the game from Fallout Script Extender. In these cases you must load from that launcher instead of Steam or the FO4 executable.

  6. Fatalmasterpiece
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    Thanks for the update @Dark0ne and the hard work on NMM.
  7. CardTaken
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    I have not been closely following things. But I did decide to re-download NMM today. Thought I'd poke my head into Skyrim again. I found a .NET issue first. I guess that is on my end. So I had to search around for older versions of NMM. Which, as far as I can tell, do not show up on the main download page.

    Some observations:
    - If your goal is for the most recent releases to be used "at your own risk" by "people who want to help test the newest updates," why does the main download page only have a link for the newest version? And why is it that when I open NMM, I get a notification that there is an updated version available? (As a popup of all things.) My reaction to both of these are, "Nexus really wants me to use the latest version." Not, "Nexus only wants me to use the latest if I'm willing to deal with some buggy update pains."

    - I appreciate the work you put in this. I appreciate the work of all the volunteers that make this community what it is. And I don't expect professional anything. That said, I think communication is key here. Those who want to be guinea pigs for beta software should probably have a signup list or something. There are other ways to alert people to updates than using a popup. And if you don't actually want everybody participating blindly in beta updates, then alerting everyone to updates in a big way, within the program itself, is probably a bad idea.

    Calling the program Beta may shield you from some complaints, but if the entire program is considered Beta, no matter what version, then it loses all meaning. It's like the phenomenon where the "are you sure you want to delete this file?" prompt used to get largely ignored because it was on everything (disclaimer: my memory of this phenomenon may not be entirely accurate, but the principle of it should be intact). The general idea is: People are only warned by things that are out of the ordinary.

    You can still call the program Beta if you want, but I would then call new releases Alpha, even if you feel they are past the Alpha stage. The importance is in distinguishing between the two for the user, rather than the name itself. Most users, regardless of their intelligence in a debate room or in the workplace of their chosen profession, react to interfaces in the same way - that is, they react to interfaces in a way that mirrors how they react to the real world.

    Basically, look up the word Scotoma if I'm losing you.
  8. bben46
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    .NetFramework is a WINDOWS program, and is a part of Windows. It is NOT a Nexus program. It is required for many other programs not just NMM.  The problems have just been with the latest WINDOWS update of their .net framework program. It works just fine for people who have kept up with the WIndows updates.  If you cannot install it, you have a WINDOWS problem. NOT a NMM problem. Nexus cannot fix a Windows problem for you.
     
    If you are using Win7 you NEED the SP1 update at a bare minimum as something in the latest .NetFramework requires the SP1 update that came out several years ago. I still use Win7. And  I have had no problem with NMM. On my system, the latest .NetFramework was installed as a part of the regular Windows updates. And NMM just works.
  9. Bloodyrifle
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    I am just disappointed.
    Before the update, it worked perfectly and i even had good download speeds.
    Now, NMM requires Framework 4.6 and i can't install it as my system is x32.
    Thank you devs.
  10. Bugsdaman
    Bugsdaman
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    Thank you for clearing some things up. I somewhat like the new NMM, but I do have one question. How do I get my mods back? They all show up, but I cannot activate any of them. I uninstalled and reinstalled all of them (190 mods...thank you download history), and I still cannot activate any of my mods. It's a bit frustrating and I could use a point in the right direction.
    1. AndreGabanis
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      This has happened to me as well, im not sure what to do either. Some mods will install though, but not most.
    2. Bathezid
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      Same thing happened to me. Finally decided to reinstall my mods since I have a really unstable game and I know I had some really old scripts running still. I upgraded NMM and can't activate any mods.